torso maps

[Trevor Marriott]

There is no overwhelming evidence that Jackson was not a murder victim. That is why I ignore the suggestion.

And you ignore the evidence that suggests she was not

So that is why I - and reasonably 99 per cent out here - fail to accept the idea that they were anything but murder victims.

Well you and the 99 per cent you mention, and I am sure that number is overinflated need to take a step back, and look at what evidence is needed to be able to conclusively prove a murder before you keep crying "murder"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Harry D]

Either there were two serial killers operating at the same time, in the same city, who both engaged in mutilation, organ removal, and cut away the abdominal walls in large flaps... OR we have a single killer whose MO & signature changed to fit whatever circumstances.

It all depends on which explanation you find the most plausible. Personally, I'm leaning towards the latter.

[Herlock Sholmes]

More things said about me that are not true. Does it please you to do that? To claim that I would have said that I´m never wrong? To paint me out as deluded? With illusions of grandeur?

It does not belong to a serious discussion, and it ends here.

Equally I have no desire to take part in any further discussion with a man who is quite happy to claim that people are deluded, ignorant or biased if they disagree with his conclusions and then proceeds to paint himself as the wounded party whenever they respond.

It’s not serious discussion that you’re looking for Fish it’s the constant confirmation of your opinions.

[Abby Normal]

As you keep being told that there is overwhelming evidence, which points to Jackson not being a murder victim. Why do you keep ignoring these facts ?

In addition, you also keep ignoring the fact that there is no hard evidence to show the other torsos were the subject of murder.

As to the verdicts which were brought in in some of the cases, those being "wilful murder" these verdicts were arrived at solely on the doctors inquest testimony, which was nothing more than their opinions, as there was no medical evidence to show they had been murdered. The juries were effectively asked to agree with the doctors, despite there being no evidence to support their opinions.

Its time you woke up to reality, and accepted some of these facts which negate your Torso serial killer theory.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Wheres the “overwhelming evidence” that jackson or the others werent murdered trevor?

[Abby Normal]

Either there were two serial killers operating at the same time, in the same city, who both engaged in mutilation, organ removal, and cut away the abdominal walls in large flaps... OR we have a single killer whose MO & signature changed to fit whatever circumstances.

It all depends on which explanation you find the most plausible. Personally, I'm leaning towards the latter.

Add to that victimology, which i think gets totally over looked here, and the window is even smaller.

[Sam Flynn]

Add to that victimology, which i think gets totally over looked.

Before we can read too much into victimology, it would be good to know whether the torso victims were all unfortunates, and what their estimated ages were. We know that Jackson was in her early twenties, but what about the others?

[Fisherman]

Equally I have no desire to take part in any further discussion with a man who is quite happy to claim that people are deluded, ignorant or biased if they disagree with his conclusions and then proceeds to paint himself as the wounded party whenever they respond.

It’s not serious discussion that you’re looking for Fish it’s the constant confirmation of your opinions.

Then don´t talk to yourself, since YOU have called ME deluded and biased (together with a lot of other not very flattering things), and with no honest aim in my research.

And you don´t have any desire to interact with such people, remember.

Pot and kettle, Herlock; pot and kettle.

Bye.

[Fisherman]

"I keep saying that the Ripper murders are Torso murders light"

Disembowelment and/or evisceration in a public place (Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes) and the extensive evisceration and de-fleshing of an another victim (Kelly) is a "light" version of dismemberment and occasional (limited) evisceration indoors? Hardly. If you ask me, the torso victims were the ones who got off lightly in comparison; although I wouldn't classify them as "Ripper murders light", but as another type of murder entirely.

The Ripper murders were Torso murders light in the respect that as the the Ripper, the killer did not have the time to perfect his cutting the way he did in the torso cases. Ergo, I am referring to the killer´s work, not the victims sufferings.
Torso killings: high level of cutting skill evinced overall.
Ripper murders: not all that much of a high level of cutting skill, (probably) due to time constraint.
Therefore, the Ripper murders are Torso murders light.

And I don´t think any of the victims "got off lightly", other in the respect that they all were more or less spared physical torture before being put to death.

[Fisherman]

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I have considered your suggestions, Trevor. I came to the conclusion that they were not good ones. We are all at liberty to draw our own conclusions. I don´t always agree with the majority, but I do so quite firmly on this score.

[Fisherman]

Before we can read too much into victimology, it would be good to know whether the torso victims were all unfortunates, and what their estimated ages were. We know that Jackson was in her early twenties, but what about the others?

To fit the Ripper "agenda", they need to be somewhere between twenty-something and forty-something. And who knows if he would have turned fiteen or fifty down, given the opportunity?

It´s a useless angle to make decisions from.

What we know about victimology is that the torso killer was not alien to the idea of killing prostitutes. That is instead a very useful thing to know.

All very easy.

I agree that it would be nice to know whether the rest of the torso victims were prostitutes, but what we have is what we have. And what we have is what we go on. Generally speaking, a prostitute is much more likely to have no relatives and/or friends searching for her than a non-prostitute, so that parameter is in place in the torso cases.

[Sam Flynn]

To fit the Ripper "agenda", they need to be somewhere between twenty-something and forty-something. And who knows if he would have turned fiteen or fifty down, given the opportunity?

It´s a useless angle to make decisions from.

No it isn't "useless" - quite the contrary. Perhaps TK had a thing for young women... perhaps they were all of child-bearing (and pregnancy-terminating) age... perhaps they were all of "courting" age and were done in by their boyfriend, like Klosowski finished off his girlfriends... perhaps they were young enough to be housemaids and employed by their killer... etc.

Whatever the scenario, the ages of the victims certainly is a relevant angle of enquiry, because it could reveal a pattern, and tell us something about the killer. The Ripper sure didn't seem to care about the ages - or looks, for that matter - of the women he killed, so if most/all the torso victims were young women, that would be a significant fact indeed.

Apart from Jackson, does anyone happen to know the torso victims' approximate ages?

[Fisherman]

No it isn't "useless" - quite the contrary. Perhaps TK had a thing for young women... perhaps they were all of child-bearing (and pregnancy-terminating) age... perhaps they were all of "courting" age and were done in by their boyfriend, like Klosowski finished off his girlfriends... perhaps they were young enough to be housemaids and employed by their killer... etc.

Once we have Kelly in the mix, it really becomes useless - the age span accepted by the Ripper allows for just about anything. Od course we can say "maybe he had a flair for really young girls", but I don´t like dressing things up to change the facts. "Maybe he wanted to cut into a pregnant woman", "Maybe the flaps were collateral damage", "Maybe he took the uterus out from Jackson to get at the foetus" and so on. Why not stick with what we actually KNOW?

Whatever the scenario, the ages of the victims certainly is a relevant angle of enquiry, because it could reveal a pattern, and tell us something about the killer. The Ripper sure didn't seem to care about the ages - or looks, for that matter - of the women he killed, so if most/all the torso victims were young women, that would be a significant fact indeed.

Apart from Jackson, does anyone happen to know the torso victims' approximate ages?

Let´s not make the mistake to think the Ripper victims were all old drabs. Stride was a beautiful woman according to Dew, Eddowes was supposedly good-looking, Nichols looked a lot younger than her real age and Kelly seems to have been good-looking too. Only Chapman answers to the old prejudiced view, more or less.

The torso victims were generally speaking younger than the Ripper victims, but I believe Jackson was the youngest of them, meaning that the rest were "Kelly aged" or more. I will try and look it up in more detail, although what we have is the medico´s estimates only.

[Joshua Rogan]

Apart from Jackson, does anyone happen to know the torso victims' approximate ages?

I think all that the doctors could really determine - or would commit to - is that the others were all over 25, with the Pinchin St torso also said to be under 40.

[Fisherman]

Galloway had the Rainham victim down as being somewhere between her late twenties and thirtyfive years of age.

The Whitehall victim was between 25 and 30, according to Bond.

The Pinchin Street victim was between 25 and 40, as far as Hebbert could tell.

So nothing much to go on there, I´m afraid.

[Sam Flynn]

Galloway had the Rainham victim down as being somewhere between her late twenties and thirtyfive years of age.

The Whitehall victim was between 25 and 30, according to Bond.

The Pinchin Street victim was between 25 and 40, as far as Hebbert could tell.

So nothing much to go on there, I´m afraid.

On the contrary - if we take the lower bounds or even the midpoints, then all the victims so far mentioned were significantly younger than the Ripper victims, apart from Kelly. At the very worst, the torso victims were thirty-somethings, as opposed to forty-somethings like the majority of the C5.