torso maps

[Sam Flynn]

Ah, see now you're not being objective, Sam.

I made an objective and demonstrably factual statement about the pattern of the crimes. A one-off torso in Pinchin Street does not conform to the pattern of the torso murders, the vast majority of which took place well outside the East End, so it isn't MUCH of an overlap, is it?

[Herlock Sholmes]

Maybe he did, I don't know, maybe some ripper victims were killed indoors and brought outside or maybe the some of the more ideal conditions provided by Kelly's living situation weren't available in other victims? "Planned" for his victim having a room? Do you mean aware of the fact the victim had a room before the murder?

That’s what I mean. If you suggest, correct me if I’m wrong, that part of the ripper’s plan was that his victim (Kelly) had her own room which would have afforded him the privacy that he wouldn’t have had if he’d killed her in the streets like the other victims, then either he would have known that beforehand so I’d ask how. Or, it was just good fortune, in which case it wasn’t a plan but just someone take advantage of a fortuitous circumstance. Another question would be, if Kelly hadn’t have had a room would the ripper have decided not to kill her. Maybe it could be said that after The Double Event he wanted to reduce his risk of being caught? But I’d suggest that he might have struggled to find prostitutes with their own rooms?

[Harry D]

I made an objective and demonstrably factual statement about the pattern of the crimes. A one-off torso in Pinchin Street does not conform to the pattern of the torso murders, the vast majority of which took place well outside the East End, so it isn't MUCH of an overlap, is it?

Who's talking about the pattern of the crimes? I simply made a factual statement that the two series of murders overlapped in time and place. Does that mean they were carried out by the same hand? Not at all, but it is a startling coincidence. It seems you wish to diminish the fact because you are of the firm opinion that these murders were not connected. That's not objective, my friend.

[Abby Normal]

Not just like Chapman and Kelly. The number and nature of those infernal "flaps" were different in each case.

Flaps is good enough for me. Anyone can drill down enough on any detail untill they find a difference.

[Sam Flynn]

Flaps is good enough for me.

"Flaps" is not a technical term, and is about as specific - and useful - as "pieces". With respect to the Jackson torso, and only that case among the torso victims, they were described as "slips" (or strips) of flesh, and they were only two in number, as opposed to three in the Chapman and Kelly murders. Furthermore, the flaps/pieces cut from Kelly's abdomen were huge, and significantly more extensive than either Chapman or Jackson.

So "flaps" is not good enough at all. It's far too non-specific a term.

[Sam Flynn]

Who's talking about the pattern of the crimes? I simply made a factual statement that the two series of murders overlapped in time and place. Does that mean they were carried out by the same hand? Not at all, but it is a startling coincidence. It seems you wish to diminish the fact because you are of the firm opinion that these murders were not connected. That's not objective, my friend.

I don't want to diminish any facts, only to emphasise that we need to be very specific if we are to draw any inference from the data. Simply observing that ONE torso was deposited in Pinchin Street whilst the majority were dumped on the other side of London doesn't constitute much of a geographical overlap. Likewise the occurrence of a "spike" of open-air evisceration murders in the middle of a long-running series of quite different murders isn't much of a temporal overlap either.

If my opinion is firm in respect of the non-connectedness of the murders, it's because I objectively look at the specifics and avoid over-generalisation.

[Harry D]

I don't want to diminish any facts, only to emphasise that we need to be very specific if we are to draw any inference from the data. Simply observing that ONE torso was deposited in Pinchin Street whilst the majority were dumped on the other side of London doesn't constitute much of a geographical overlap. Likewise the occurrence of a "spike" of open-air evisceration murders in the middle of a long-running series of quite different murders isn't much of a temporal overlap either.

If my opinion is firm in respect of the non-connectedness of the murders, it's because I objectively look at the specifics and avoid over-generalisation.

'Much' is a subjective term, Sam. The murders DID overlap. People can read what they like into that, but it remains a fact.

[Sam Flynn]

'Much' is a subjective term, Sam. The murders DID overlap. People can read what they like into that, but it remains a fact.

What about all the other murders that took place all over London from the start to the end of the torso series? We can say that there was an overlap, but we can also say, quite legitimately and objectively, that it wasn't MUCH of an overlap.

[Abby Normal]

"Flaps" is not a technical term, and is about as specific - and useful - as "pieces". With respect to the Jackson torso, and only that case among the torso victims, they were described as "slips" (or strips) of flesh, and they were only two in number, as opposed to three in the Chapman and Kelly murders. Furthermore, the flaps/pieces cut from Kelly's abdomen were huge, and significantly more extensive than either Chapman or Jackson.

So "flaps" is not good enough at all. It's far too non-specific a term.

hi Sam
maybe not for you-but good enough for me and others too.

speaking of jackson. I would think the first most reasonable way her killer would have approached removing the baby would be to just cut around the bump in a large circle-yet we have flaps yet again.

and Ill say it again because I know how much you love the word---FLAPS! ; )

[Herlock Sholmes]

"Flaps" is not a technical term, and is about as specific - and useful - as "pieces". With respect to the Jackson torso, and only that case among the torso victims, they were described as "slips" (or strips) of flesh, and they were only two in number, as opposed to three in the Chapman and Kelly murders. Furthermore, the flaps/pieces cut from Kelly's abdomen were huge, and significantly more extensive than either Chapman or Jackson.

So "flaps" is not good enough at all. It's far too non-specific a term.

‘Flaps’ is nowhere near good enough Gareth but they’ve become hooks to hang a case on. Can anyone tell us the difference between a ‘flap’ or a ‘strip’ or a ‘slip?’ Can anyone say that they know what a ‘flap’ looks like? Or does the criteria for a ‘flap’ change in terms of size? Say 3 inches long is a ‘flap’ but over 3 inches is a ‘strip.’ It appears to mean a piece of loose flesh, still attached to the body, caused by a weapon of some kind.

Far too vague to make such a fuss about in my opinion. It smacks of desperation.

[Abby Normal]

‘Flaps’ is nowhere near good enough Gareth but they’ve become hooks to hang a case on. Can anyone tell us the difference between a ‘flap’ or a ‘strip’ or a ‘slip?’ Can anyone say that they know what a ‘flap’ looks like? Or does the criteria for a ‘flap’ change in terms of size? Say 3 inches long is a ‘flap’ but over 3 inches is a ‘strip.’ It appears to mean a piece of loose flesh, still attached to the body, caused by a weapon of some kind.

Far too vague to make such a fuss about in my opinion. It smacks of desperation.

FLAPS!!!!!

hehehehe

[jerryd]

"Flaps" is not a technical term, and is about as specific - and useful - as "pieces". With respect to the Jackson torso, and only that case among the torso victims, they were described as "slips" (or strips) of flesh, and they were only two in number, as opposed to three in the Chapman and Kelly murders. Furthermore, the flaps/pieces cut from Kelly's abdomen were huge, and significantly more extensive than either Chapman or Jackson.

So "flaps" is not good enough at all. It's far too non-specific a term.

Dr. Hibberts opening statement in “A System of Legal Medicine” regarding The Jackson case is:

The parts found were 1) two large flaps of skin.....

[RockySullivan]

That’s what I mean. If you suggest, correct me if I’m wrong, that part of the ripper’s plan was that his victim (Kelly) had her own room which would have afforded him the privacy that he wouldn’t have had if he’d killed her in the streets like the other victims, then either he would have known that beforehand so I’d ask how. Or, it was just good fortune, in which case it wasn’t a plan but just someone take advantage of a fortuitous circumstance. Another question would be, if Kelly hadn’t have had a room would the ripper have decided not to kill her. Maybe it could be said that after The Double Event he wanted to reduce his risk of being caught? But I’d suggest that he might have struggled to find prostitutes with their own rooms?

serial killers sometimes plan ahead

[RockySullivan]

‘Flaps’ is nowhere near good enough Gareth but they’ve become hooks to hang a case on. Can anyone tell us the difference between a ‘flap’ or a ‘strip’ or a ‘slip?’ Can anyone say that they know what a ‘flap’ looks like? Or does the criteria for a ‘flap’ change in terms of size? Say 3 inches long is a ‘flap’ but over 3 inches is a ‘strip.’ It appears to mean a piece of loose flesh, still attached to the body, caused by a weapon of some kind.

Far too vague to make such a fuss about in my opinion. It smacks of desperation.

this post reeks of desperation

[RockySullivan]

What about all the other murders that took place all over London from the start to the end of the torso series? We can say that there was an overlap, but we can also say, quite legitimately and objectively, that it wasn't MUCH of an overlap.

Sam are you volunteering to post another example of any other victims who had their reproductive organs cut out in 1888 since its not a unique trait at all? put up or shut up