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  • GBinOz
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post
    I do find the method in which Kelly's heart was alleged to have been removed does seem quite unorthodox, and perhaps that in itself is a potential clue.

    Was the technique used to take out Kelly's heart seen as particularly unusual, complex, or maverick at the time?

    Furthermore, would the technique used have been possible to undertake by a man with limited knowledge of anatomy?
    Hi RD,

    According to Richard Paterson, who advocates Francis Thompson as a suspect, that was a technique developed by Virchow, but rarely taught at the time. Thompson was a student of Virchow and spent six years as a medical student, doing an inordinate amount of dissections but no exams.

    Cheers, George

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post

    Thanks RD.
    I'm not sure Philips was mistaken was the point I was trying to make.
    The newspaper clipping I posted from an anonymous doctor present at Mary Kelly's post mortem which stated there was an attempt at decapitation seems to support Philips observation that there was a similarity in the division of the neck between the Pinchin St torso and the wounds on Mary Kelly's neck. In previous discussions on this subject, some posters have suggested Dr Philips was confusing Mary Kelly's wounds with Annie Chapmans, whose wounds, as Abby also points out (Hi Abby!) included an apparent attempt and decapitation. The news report was accurate on a detail that was never made public at the inquest- the method used to remove Mary Kelly's heart but confirmed when Bond's report was returned, so highly likely came from the source it purported to, a doctor present at the post mortem. It may have been Philips himself but could have been any one of the others present.
    Ah yes, I understand. My apologies for my initial misunderstanding with regards Dr Philips.

    I do find the method in which Kelly's heart was alleged to have been removed does seem quite unorthodox, and perhaps that in itself is a potential clue.

    Was the technique used to take out Kelly's heart seen as particularly unusual, complex, or maverick at the time?

    Furthermore, would the technique used have been possible to undertake by a man with limited knowledge of anatomy?

    There is of course a big difference between having theoretical anatomical knowledge, and a person having the practical skills to perform procedures, that are based on said knowledge of anatomy.



    Back on topic now though (sorry to divert earlier)

    Has there ever been a definitive list of all the possible, probable, and confirmed Torso victims?

    I was astonished (and sickened) to find that several children were also dismembered.

    Have any children ever been considered as Torso killer victims?

    That would add another layer of evil to the already horrific case, and perhaps also open up an entirely different angle.

    As ever, thank you for your expert guidance and for taking the time to respond to my queries.



    Regards

    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Thanks R.J. I don't have any copies of Ripperana but I was recently talking to someone who had rediscovered old articles from it and mentioned how good some were.

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  • rjpalmer
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post
    The news report was accurate on a detail that was never made public at the inquest- the method used to remove Mary Kelly's heart but confirmed when Bond's report was returned, so highly likely came from the source it purported to, a doctor present at the post mortem. It may have been Philips himself but could have been any one of the others present.
    To those who might be interested, Nick Warren (a surgeon) made some interesting remarks on the "leaked copy" of Dr. Bond's report in Ripperana 13 (July 1995) but cites a different newspaper, The Observer (London) of 18 November 1888, p. 5, as sent to him by Stephen Ryan of New South Wales.

    "Though the coroner prevented most of the medical evidence from coming out, it is believed that much of it will be of a curious nature. According to one report published on Friday [this would have been the 16th], it seems that the assassin cut the woman's heart out and carried it away, and if he did not carry away the other parts of the body, it was supposed that he was either disturbed or that he forgot them in his hurry to escape. That he cut the heart out from below instead of cutting through the diaphragm does not, as some argue, show that he is an ignorant person....The strange thing is that the murderer is able to keep about him such a ghastly collection of human relics without exciting suspicion."

    (my emphasis)

    Warren's remarks:

    "A rather odd anatomical statement. The fibrous pericardium, which surrounds the heart, blends below the central tendon of the diaphragm, so it is technically possible to open the pericardium directly from the abdominal cavity (Dr. Bond states "The Pericardium was open below and the Heart absent"). Why anyone thought that extracting the heart by "cutting through the (main muscular part of the) diaphragm is a less '"ignorant" technique, is unclear. Dr. Bond was surgeon to "A" (Whitehall) Division and was involved in the investigation of the Torso Murders (The Whitehall Mystery &tc). He believed the Torso Murderer possessed anatomical skill, whereas the Ripper did not, because the former successfully decapitated victims when the Ripper failed to do so. In fact the Ripper only used a knife, while the Torso killer also used a saw, according to Dr. Edwin Calloway."


    (I think his name was actually Dr. Edward Calloway).
    Last edited by rjpalmer; 12-07-2023, 11:32 PM.

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  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

    Thank you kindly for your response to my query Debra

    Your message is brilliant and I concur with your thoughts on this particular area of discussion.

    I must say that it wouldn't surprise me if Dr Philips had made a mistake; I only recently posted on another thread questioning Dr Philip's overall integrity in the Ripper case.

    The possible attempt to decapitate Kelly is certainly an aspect of her murder that warrants further discussion.

    Any attempt by the Ripper to remove the head from any of his alleged victims; would give some credence to the idea that there may be a connection between the Ripper and the Torso Killer.


    RD



    Thanks RD.
    I'm not sure Philips was mistaken was the point I was trying to make.
    The newspaper clipping I posted from an anonymous doctor present at Mary Kelly's post mortem which stated there was an attempt at decapitation seems to support Philips observation that there was a similarity in the division of the neck between the Pinchin St torso and the wounds on Mary Kelly's neck. In previous discussions on this subject, some posters have suggested Dr Philips was confusing Mary Kelly's wounds with Annie Chapmans, whose wounds, as Abby also points out (Hi Abby!) included an apparent attempt and decapitation. The news report was accurate on a detail that was never made public at the inquest- the method used to remove Mary Kelly's heart but confirmed when Bond's report was returned, so highly likely came from the source it purported to, a doctor present at the post mortem. It may have been Philips himself but could have been any one of the others present.

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post

    Hi RD,
    That's an interesting question and you have got me thinking about alternative scenarios. We tend to assume that the killer had a lot of time to do what he did to Kelly don't we? And that it was such a horrific crime scene because he carried out everything he wanted to do on her body, but, what if the murder was committed later in the morning as some theorise? What if the doctors were wrong about the time of death and Maxwell was right when she says she saw Kelly up and about the after the time the murder was supposedly committed? Then does that leave us with more of a possibility that he was disturbed and had intended to go even further?

    In past discussions it has been suggested that Dr Philips was confusing Kelly's murder with that of Annie Chapman when he was asked whether there was any similarity in the cutting of the body in the Pinchin Street case and the injuries to Mary Jane Kelly's body, Dr Philip's replying that the division of the neck and attempt to disarticulate the bones of the spine were very similar to that which was effected in this case. In Mary Jane's case it was stated that "The neck was cut through the skin & other tissues right down to the vertebrae the 5th & 6th being deeply notched" and this is where the division occurred in the case of the Pinchin Street torso- "The spinal column was divided at the junction of the 5th and 6th cervical vertebrae." so there is a similarity just going by the descriptions.

    Another newspaper article that I have posted before when discussing Kelly's missing heart that interest me because it mentions an attempt to decapitate Kelly, reports that an unnamed doctor "One of the doctors who assisted in the post mortem examination of the body of Mary Jane Kelly, the last Whitechapel victim, has come to the conclusion that the murderer has no anatomical knowledge since in taking the heart out he cut through the diaphragm instead of opening the sternum. The uterus it seems, too, is not missing, as was once stated, but the heart is. The doctor has also come to the conclusion that the murderer made an attempt to decapitate the victim."
    Dundee Evening Telegraph Nov 17th 1888

    We know from the return of Thomas Bond's report on Kelly that her heart was removed through the diaphragm and so the newspaper report is accurate in that detail, a detail not given at the inquest and unknown until the return of Bond's report. This same newspaper report also supports the idea that there was an attempt to disarticulate the bones of the neck.

    Having said all that, it seems bizarre that there would be an attempt to dismember Mary Jane Kelly in her own home.

    Not really any answers there, RD but you've made me think about some things.​​
    Thank you kindly for your response to my query Debra

    Your message is brilliant and I concur with your thoughts on this particular area of discussion.

    I must say that it wouldn't surprise me if Dr Philips had made a mistake; I only recently posted on another thread questioning Dr Philip's overall integrity in the Ripper case.

    The possible attempt to decapitate Kelly is certainly an aspect of her murder that warrants further discussion.

    Any attempt by the Ripper to remove the head from any of his alleged victims; would give some credence to the idea that there may be a connection between the Ripper and the Torso Killer.


    RD




    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post

    Hi RD,
    That's an interesting question and you have got me thinking about alternative scenarios. We tend to assume that the killer had a lot of time to do what he did to Kelly don't we? And that it was such a horrific crime scene because he carried out everything he wanted to do on her body, but, what if the murder was committed later in the morning as some theorise? What if the doctors were wrong about the time of death and Maxwell was right when she says she saw Kelly up and about the after the time the murder was supposedly committed? Then does that leave us with more of a possibility that he was disturbed and had intended to go even further?

    In past discussions it has been suggested that Dr Philips was confusing Kelly's murder with that of Annie Chapman when he was asked whether there was any similarity in the cutting of the body in the Pinchin Street case and the injuries to Mary Jane Kelly's body, Dr Philip's replying that the division of the neck and attempt to disarticulate the bones of the spine were very similar to that which was effected in this case. In Mary Jane's case it was stated that "The neck was cut through the skin & other tissues right down to the vertebrae the 5th & 6th being deeply notched" and this is where the division occurred in the case of the Pinchin Street torso- "The spinal column was divided at the junction of the 5th and 6th cervical vertebrae." so there is a similarity just going by the descriptions.

    Another newspaper article that I have posted before when discussing Kelly's missing heart that interest me because it mentions an attempt to decapitate Kelly, reports that an unnamed doctor "One of the doctors who assisted in the post mortem examination of the body of Mary Jane Kelly, the last Whitechapel victim, has come to the conclusion that the murderer has no anatomical knowledge since in taking the heart out he cut through the diaphragm instead of opening the sternum. The uterus it seems, too, is not missing, as was once stated, but the heart is. The doctor has also come to the conclusion that the murderer made an attempt to decapitate the victim."
    Dundee Evening Telegraph Nov 17th 1888

    We know from the return of Thomas Bond's report on Kelly that her heart was removed through the diaphragm and so the newspaper report is accurate in that detail, a detail not given at the inquest and unknown until the return of Bond's report. This same newspaper report also supports the idea that there was an attempt to disarticulate the bones of the neck.

    Having said all that, it seems bizarre that there would be an attempt to dismember Mary Jane Kelly in her own home.

    Not really any answers there, RD but you've made me think about some things.​​
    hi debs
    great to see you posting here as usual, with stellar research and analysis. it would not be bizarre if the killer of mary was also torsoman and dismemberment was part of his sick fantasy.

    also, wasnt chapman almost beheaded?

    Leave a comment:


  • Charlie
    replied
    Bonjour Debra,

    You've pointed out something essential. Yes, the dismemberments of the victim from Botzaris Street (1892) were not carried out at the joints, unlike what was observed with the victim from Petit-Montrouge (1886). This could suggest that the murderers are different. Being able to compare this photograph with the one taken of the remains of the Petit-Montrouge victim—since some journalists from that time claim that this photo exists—would be interesting. I need to find the time to return to the Police Prefecture Archives. With a bit of luck and perseverance...

    These exchanges on the forum are fascinating because they force me to think and revisit details I hadn't considered before.

    One of The Rookie Detective​'s posts (on the Paris Torso Mystery thread) regarding the connection with railways allowed me to highlight that, in the case of the Petit-Montrouge mystery (1886), the collapse that occurred the night before in the Petite Ceinture railway tunnel had mobilized a large number of people. The "L’Univers illustré" newspaper of August 14, 1886, even specified:

    An exceptional security service has been organized by the police prefecture to prevent the invasion of the surrounding grounds by the curious crowd who flock to these areas.
    This means that placing the torso on the embankment along the railroad track on Giordano Bruno Street—a street that might otherwise seem lost and uninteresting—was not something trivial. It took quite a spirit of provocation to toss the debris in that particular location.

    As for what you mentioned about Mary Jane Kelly and the hypothesis that the killer may have wanted to dismember her, that opens up some intriguing possibilities.

    The most challenging part of studying this information is that one must constrain oneself to travel through time, always trying to project one's mind to a specific moment and place to accurately envision things. I would love to be able, like the hero of Richard Matheson's "Bid Time Return", through clever exercises in self-hypnosis and psychic imprinting, to travel back centuries and place myself in the midst of the East End on the night of November 8 to 9—and other key moments. But we are forced to make do with the available means.
    Last edited by Charlie; 12-06-2023, 07:53 PM.

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  • Debra A
    replied
    Originally posted by The Rookie Detective View Post

    Another fascinating post.

    Debra, may I ask; based on your final paragraph regarding Kelly's lower leg; is there even the slightest possibility that the man who mutilated Kelly had intended to do even more extensive cuts, ergo, to dismember her?

    The idea that the killer of Stride and/or Coles was interrupted has been a longstanding topic of debate.
    However, could that have also applied to Kelly's murder?

    And therefore, suggest that the Ripper was possibly (though not probably) also the Torso killer?


    RD
    Hi RD,
    That's an interesting question and you have got me thinking about alternative scenarios. We tend to assume that the killer had a lot of time to do what he did to Kelly don't we? And that it was such a horrific crime scene because he carried out everything he wanted to do on her body, but, what if the murder was committed later in the morning as some theorise? What if the doctors were wrong about the time of death and Maxwell was right when she says she saw Kelly up and about the after the time the murder was supposedly committed? Then does that leave us with more of a possibility that he was disturbed and had intended to go even further?

    In past discussions it has been suggested that Dr Philips was confusing Kelly's murder with that of Annie Chapman when he was asked whether there was any similarity in the cutting of the body in the Pinchin Street case and the injuries to Mary Jane Kelly's body, Dr Philip's replying that the division of the neck and attempt to disarticulate the bones of the spine were very similar to that which was effected in this case. In Mary Jane's case it was stated that "The neck was cut through the skin & other tissues right down to the vertebrae the 5th & 6th being deeply notched" and this is where the division occurred in the case of the Pinchin Street torso- "The spinal column was divided at the junction of the 5th and 6th cervical vertebrae." so there is a similarity just going by the descriptions.

    Another newspaper article that I have posted before when discussing Kelly's missing heart that interest me because it mentions an attempt to decapitate Kelly, reports that an unnamed doctor "One of the doctors who assisted in the post mortem examination of the body of Mary Jane Kelly, the last Whitechapel victim, has come to the conclusion that the murderer has no anatomical knowledge since in taking the heart out he cut through the diaphragm instead of opening the sternum. The uterus it seems, too, is not missing, as was once stated, but the heart is. The doctor has also come to the conclusion that the murderer made an attempt to decapitate the victim."
    Dundee Evening Telegraph Nov 17th 1888

    We know from the return of Thomas Bond's report on Kelly that her heart was removed through the diaphragm and so the newspaper report is accurate in that detail, a detail not given at the inquest and unknown until the return of Bond's report. This same newspaper report also supports the idea that there was an attempt to disarticulate the bones of the neck.

    Having said all that, it seems bizarre that there would be an attempt to dismember Mary Jane Kelly in her own home.

    Not really any answers there, RD but you've made me think about some things.​​

    Leave a comment:


  • The Rookie Detective
    replied
    Originally posted by Debra A View Post
    Hi Charlie,
    Although the photograph of the body parts you posted is disturbing and quite gruesome it is also interesting in other ways. Thanks for posting all this material.
    We can clearly see from the photograph that in this particular case, the victim's legs were not dismembered through the joints, either hip or knee, which is different to the London area cases 1887-89. Dr Hebbert and others used removal of limbs at the joints as a point of resemblance between the four London cases and suggested a hunter or butcher had performed the dismemberment.

    I am not pointing this out to dismiss any links between the French and English cases, just simply to address various theories about the four London cases around the method of dismemberment.

    The photograph of the 1892 resembles more the areas where doctors would usually remove limbs on living patients during amputation if one looks at medical texts of the period dealing with amputation.
    It's interesting because I often read people say that there are only so many ways a body can be cut up and dismemberment through the joints would be a skill many were capable of in this era and quite a common method to use but this one and only photograph I have seen of a similar crime contradicts those ideas.

    Another thing it contradicts to some extent, in my view, is the idea that it would be very difficult to match up dismembered limbs and body parts with the lack of modern DNA techniques and it would be difficult to prove that they all came from one body, often used to support the argument that these dismemberment cases are actually different bodies illegally obtained used for anatomical specimens and then illegally discarded. Looking at this photograph, that those upper and lower legs belong together is without doubt, they match exactly. I suppose on remains that were very decomposed it might be more difficult.

    One last point, seeing the division of the thigh and how the cut looks on a photograph reminds me very much of the cut around Mary Kelly's lower leg, just above the calf. I am not suggesting she was about to be dismembered but I think it makes it more apparent that it was a cut, rather than a garter of something tied around her leg.
    Another fascinating post.

    Debra, may I ask; based on your final paragraph regarding Kelly's lower leg; is there even the slightest possibility that the man who mutilated Kelly had intended to do even more extensive cuts, ergo, to dismember her?

    The idea that the killer of Stride and/or Coles was interrupted has been a longstanding topic of debate.
    However, could that have also applied to Kelly's murder?

    And therefore, suggest that the Ripper was possibly (though not probably) also the Torso killer?


    RD

    Leave a comment:


  • Debra A
    replied
    Hi Charlie,
    Although the photograph of the body parts you posted is disturbing and quite gruesome it is also interesting in other ways. Thanks for posting all this material.
    We can clearly see from the photograph that in this particular case, the victim's legs were not dismembered through the joints, either hip or knee, which is different to the London area cases 1887-89. Dr Hebbert and others used removal of limbs at the joints as a point of resemblance between the four London cases and suggested a hunter or butcher had performed the dismemberment.

    I am not pointing this out to dismiss any links between the French and English cases, just simply to address various theories about the four London cases around the method of dismemberment.

    The photograph of the 1892 resembles more the areas where doctors would usually remove limbs on living patients during amputation if one looks at medical texts of the period dealing with amputation.
    It's interesting because I often read people say that there are only so many ways a body can be cut up and dismemberment through the joints would be a skill many were capable of in this era and quite a common method to use but this one and only photograph I have seen of a similar crime contradicts those ideas.

    Another thing it contradicts to some extent, in my view, is the idea that it would be very difficult to match up dismembered limbs and body parts with the lack of modern DNA techniques and it would be difficult to prove that they all came from one body, often used to support the argument that these dismemberment cases are actually different bodies illegally obtained used for anatomical specimens and then illegally discarded. Looking at this photograph, that those upper and lower legs belong together is without doubt, they match exactly. I suppose on remains that were very decomposed it might be more difficult.

    One last point, seeing the division of the thigh and how the cut looks on a photograph reminds me very much of the cut around Mary Kelly's lower leg, just above the calf. I am not suggesting she was about to be dismembered but I think it makes it more apparent that it was a cut, rather than a garter of something tied around her leg.
    Last edited by Debra A; 12-06-2023, 12:53 PM.

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  • Charlie
    replied
    Originally posted by jmenges View Post
    I have no idea what you’re trying to do, but you’ve managed to make same post 9 times.

    JM
    Thank you for your help. I wanted to modify my last post but obviously I'm not very good at it.

    Leave a comment:


  • jmenges
    replied
    I have no idea what you’re trying to do, but you’ve managed to make same post 9 times.

    JM

    Leave a comment:


  • Charlie
    replied
    Marie-François Goron, the head of the Sûreté (the equivalent of the London CID for Paris), would remember the case a few years later:
    "Parmi toute les affaires que j’ai suivies, il en est une qui a fait user beaucoup d’encre aux journalistes et dont le mystère, qui n’a jamais été pénétré, a vivement ému l’imagination de la foule ; je veux parler de la femme coupée en morceaux de la rue Botzaris. […] Je crois que rarement enquête donna tant de mal à la police. […] Quoi qu’il en soit, le mystère n’a jamais été pénétré ; et dans cent ans on parlera encore de la femme coupée en morceaux de la rue Botzaris."​

    "Among all the cases I've followed, there's one that has sparked a lot of ink from journalists and whose mystery, never solved, has deeply stirred the imagination of the public; I'm talking about the woman cut into pieces on Botzaris Street. [...] I believe that rarely has an investigation given the police so much trouble. [...] In any case, the mystery was never solved, and in a hundred years, people will still be talking about the woman cut into pieces on Botzaris Street."

    Source : "L’Amour criminel par Goron, ancien Chef de la Sûreté", Marie-François Goron, Ernest Flammarion Éditeur, pp. 94-97.

    Leave a comment:


  • Charlie
    replied
    Just a clarification: the source ("Seine de crimes," Editions du Rocher, 2015) only relates to the photo of the body at the morgue. The book doesn't provide any other significant information.

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