Torso Murders

[Fisherman]

Sorry this is so large. I posted it on the other forum as well. The last part relates to two of the torsos [Pinchin and Whitehall]. If these weren't murders, why did the police act like they were? And for you Trevor, it must be true because Inspector Reid said so!

Itīs interesting that it was speculated that two men had deposited the trunks in Whitehall and Pinchin Street - one has to wonder how they reached that thinking.

[Joshua Rogan]

Rocky,

That would be Jeremiah Hurley, living on Ellen Place, that the PC knocked up.

How did you find that out, Jerry?
My reading of Pennett's testimony is that the person he knocked up lived on Pinchin St, whereas Ellen Place seems to be at the opposite side of his beat (which would be ideal if it was used as a distraction to allow the body to be dumped, Rocky);

"[Coroner]Can you fix the time when you passed this place before? Before 5, Sir. I am sure of that, as I called a working man just before 5. At that time I was on the northern side of Pinchin-street. I looked into the arch on that occasion, and at the time day was breaking. Had the body been there then I should have seen it."

[RockySullivan]

Thank you Jerry, I wonder if he knocked up on more than one place? I will have to look in Forgotten victims but do you know the exact address? It would be interesting to see who else live in the building. In the book, the author states that the conspiracy theory of the distraction knock up was a contemporary theory...do you know what their source was for this?

[Pcdunn]

Hello MAYERLING.

Either way, it seemed to me to be ritualistic. Because of the scalping, I netted "Native American dismemberment", and I hit upon the story of Oroonoko. In A Companion to the Literature of Colonial America (p.272) Derek Hughes writes in his essay that Oroonoko sacrifices his wife,

to prevent the child from entering the cycle of the marketplace; and to the final ritual of dismemberment, in which the body reverts to being an abacus, quartered and distributed through the plantations.

I was hoping that you could fill in the gaps of the story

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oroonoko

"Oroonoko, or, the Royal Slave was a short work of fiction by Aphra Behn (1640–1689), published in 1688 by William Canning and reissued with two other fictions later that year. The eponymous hero is an African prince from Coramantien who is tricked into slavery and sold to British colonists in Surinam where he meets the narrator. Behn's text is a first person account of his life, love, rebellion and execution."

Sounds to me as if the quote you had from Derek Hughes is a critical analysis of the fictional work by Behn, and Oroonoko is a African slave character, not a Native American tribe.
Scalping, I've heard, was taught to our native tribes by European settlers.

[Robert St Devil]

I donīt know if I would have used the term ritualistic in the Torso murder context, especially since I think that it was a much more personally shaped series of murders.
But in a sense, I guess that we could be speaking of "rites" that meant something to the killer.

That's on me, Fisherman... American is my first language I am weighing your post because it's a chin-scratcher. I hope it leads somewhere. I asked Pierre if there was a way to determine from the post mortem if the body was dismembered on the same day as the woman was murdered. Would you have an opinion on this?

Yes PCDunn, it was from an analysis written by Derek Hughes. I was androiding "native American dismemberments" as a way of opening the door to that rabbit hole... expecting to skim from site to site. However, Oroonoko was in the Top 3, and my eye drifted to the part about him cutting her throat (and, removing her face?) and scattering the parts all over the plantation. Mayerling knows his literature (as does David Orsan), so I was hoping he might weigh-in.

That's disturbing, Steve, that anyone would treat a child that way. I remember breaking into this site with my gelsenium speculation moons ago, and how this agent was known as the "glass coffin" bc natives would paralyze their victim and kill them while they watched helplessly. I think they claimed it was used on the Russian spy who was murdered in London.

- - - - - - - - - - -

Were the locked doors under the arches on Pinchin St. investigated? It seems like it would be much easier to move a body from under one arch to the next -compared to- dragging/carting/boating/railroading it up-and-down Backchurch or Pinchin St.

[Elamarna]

Robert

disturbing is not the word for that i think. truly appaling.

steve

[Fisherman]

That's on me, Fisherman... American is my first language I am weighing your post because it's a chin-scratcher. I hope it leads somewhere. I asked Pierre if there was a way to determine from the post mortem if the body was dismembered on the same day as the woman was murdered. Would you have an opinion on this?

All the Thames torso victims were dismembered very close in time to death; this is obvious from the muscle contraction.

[Joshua Rogan]

Were the locked doors under the arches on Pinchin St. investigated? It seems like it would be much easier to move a body from under one arch to the next -compared to- dragging/carting/boating/railroading it up-and-down Backchurch or Pinchin St.

Yes PC Pennnett says he searched the two nearest arches, finding two sailors and a shoe-black sleeping in them. Presumably he didn't find any signs that they had been used for dismembering the corpse.

[IchabodCrane]

Tomorrow Frankfurt police will present new findings linking serial killer Manfred S. who is thought to have killed at least 5 prostitutes between 1971 and 2003 and kept their dismembered body parts stowed away in barrels, to the mutilation murder of a 13 year-old boy in in 1998. The boy's genitals were mutilated and the testicles and parts of the buttocks taken away from the crime scene.

Currently only available in German, but maybe tomorrow there will be some information available in English also.

http://www.bild.de/news/inland/news-inland/stueckelkiller-hessen-mehrere-prostituierte-ermordet-45862672.bild.html

If proven true, it would be a recent example of a torso killer and genital mutilator.

[jerryd]

How did you find that out, Jerry?
My reading of Pennett's testimony is that the person he knocked up lived on Pinchin St, whereas Ellen Place seems to be at the opposite side of his beat (which would be ideal if it was used as a distraction to allow the body to be dumped, Rocky);

"[Coroner]Can you fix the time when you passed this place before? Before 5, Sir. I am sure of that, as I called a working man just before 5. At that time I was on the northern side of Pinchin-street. I looked into the arch on that occasion, and at the time day was breaking. Had the body been there then I should have seen it."

Hi Joshua,

See this thread, http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?...eremiah+hurley, starting about Post #3. It goes around and around a little bit, but you can see what my thinking was and where the Ellen Place and Jeremiah Hurley info came from. Edward Stow had to set me on track a few times.

Easier than me explaining again. Sorry.

[John Wheat]

John do you know the source for the pinchin st sighting story? One thing I'd be really interested in is finding out is a list of who lived at the address the PC was knocking up when the torso was dumped

To RockySullivan

No I don't know the source for the sighting story.

Cheers John

[Abby Normal]

1873, Lechmere being 24, Bury being 14, Kosminski 8 (and not in Britain), Chapman 8 (and not in Britain), Levy was 17...
Another viable suspect agewise would be Tumblety - but he was not in Britain when Elizabeth Jackson and the Pinchin Street victim were killed. So he is not our man.

Thanks Fish
well it would rule out my favored suspects-Hutch, Blotchy, Kelly, bury, Koz, and chapman-but not blotchy I guess.

I think Levy is still a possibility-but certainly Lech.

anyone else want to chime in if an 1873 murder and being in London at the time fits there candidate?

[John Wheat]

To Rocky

I first read about the sighting in Paul Roland's book The Crimes of Jack the Ripper. However I'm not sure of the origin of the sighting it may have been hearsay.

Cheers John

[Pierre]

[QUOTE=Pierre;381518]Hi,

I am trying to understand the Jackson case but I have a hard time interpreting it.

I also lack data for the time period and therefore can not place a hypothesis for someone being a killer in this time period.

Quoting myself here.

I have found the source with the data. It happened an hour ago.

Kind regards, Pierre

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Joshua,

See this thread, http://jtrforums.com/showthread.php?...eremiah+hurley, starting about Post #3. It goes around and around a little bit, but you can see what my thinking was and where the Ellen Place and Jeremiah Hurley info came from. Edward Stow had to set me on track a few times.

Easier than me explaining again. Sorry.

Cheers Jerry. I think I've got it now...
When PC Pennett started his beat he met a man (Hurley) in Pinchin Street (by coincidence) who asked to be knocked up at 5 o'clock the next morning.
Sometime before 5am, the PC walked along the north side of Pinchin St, looking at the arch as he passed. There was no body present at that time.
He then walked the 5 minute walk to Ellen Place to knock up Hurley just before 5am. Which is how he knew he was definitely in Pinchin St before 5. Next time he passed, the torso was in the archway.

Is that right?

By the way, in the Scotsman report, where five past four is mentioned;

"Q - Can you fix the time when you passed this place before?
A - Before five.
Q - Any nearer than that?
A - That might be five minutes past four, you know - I know it was all that, because coming along the night before a working man asked me to call him when I passed through Pinchin Street.
Q - You mean just before five?
A - Yes, sir. "

Do you think it could have been mistranscribed, and should have read;

"Q - Can you fix the time when you passed this place before?
A - Before five.
Q - Any nearer than that? That might be five minutes past four, you know...
A - I know it was all that, because coming along the night before a working man asked me to call him when I passed through Pinchin Street."