Martha’s final wound

[Errata]

Sorry, meant marlin spike. Lots of sailors in our family and it was always referred to as a marley spike. (Word has a Swedish origin, I believe).

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C4

No worries, I've heard it as a marley spike too. I just didn't learn it that way so I don't use it.

It's a nice knife. That can opener is particularly wicked. And frankly would be a much better blade for stabbing than the utility blade. Except of course it's far to short. It's also been welded back on, so at some point the can opener snapped off at the hilt. Which if you've ever used a swiss army blade or the like, you know that just happens sometimes. I actually don't think the main blade broke, I think it got retipped from over enthusiastic sharpening over the years. They dull pretty quick.

This particular knife is a Sheffield, so you know you get a certain quality with that. But they still were really only made to accomplish certain things. Despite having a marlin spike, it's not a sailors knife, unless they really reworked the head of the utility blade. That blade will not cut rope. Wasn't made for it, wrong blade for it. But as a general army knife it will do. But in the army, that knife is not a weapon. And it wasn't designed to be one. It's barely a whittling knife. Utility blades like this were basically scissors. Anything you would use scissors for, you'd use this knife for. But it's wide enough that it can carve (badly) if it absolutely has to, so it is something of a shaping tool. That's really why it locks. If it were just used as scissors they wouldn't bother. It was designed to fulfill those tasks, and only those tasks. It will fail in a combat situation. It failed opening a can apparently. So taking that knife and attacking a woman in the torso, hitting ribs, possibly hitting the ground in the struggle, this blade will fail catastrophically. You will simply be left with a handle to beat her with. Not because it's a bad knife, it's quite a good knife. But because it just wasn't designed to do that. Especially with mass produced knives, which weren't as good as individually forged knives yet.

Akin to how if your car gets hit by a train, your car will fail to protect you. All the airbags may deploy, your seatbelt may hold you in, the roll cage may keep the car from crunching down on you as it flips, but the car simply isn't enough to protect you from a train. It will fail.

But the bayonets of the day (if I recall correctly) were the spike variant used until WWI. Bayonets started out as daggers, went to a spike design, and then back to daggers by WWII. The spikes were typically schlager blades (leaf shaped blades) or diamond blades (think of a fencing foil). The diamond blades were easier to produce, so soldiers typically ended up with one of those. A wound made by a diamond blade (and I have a really interesting scar to prove it) comes out looking like an oval. it can be a little more square given certain circumstances, but most it looks like a ragged oval. A marlin spike wound looks like you just hammered a nail in someone. It's very much a puncture. But a large one. and definitely circular. So it could look like a bayonet wound. Pretty easily.

The problem is that I have a hard time thinking that a nation of fisherman produced doctors that had never seen one of the many marlin spike misses (usually in the palm) afflicting these fisherman every day. It was a common enough wound that I would think a coroner would either recognize it, or at least bring it up as a possibility.

[curious4]

No worries, I've heard it as a marley spike too. I just didn't learn it that way so I don't use it.

It's a nice knife. That can opener is particularly wicked. And frankly would be a much better blade for stabbing than the utility blade. Except of course it's far to short. It's also been welded back on, so at some point the can opener snapped off at the hilt. Which if you've ever used a swiss army blade or the like, you know that just happens sometimes. I actually don't think the main blade broke, I think it got retipped from over enthusiastic sharpening over the years. They dull pretty quick.

This particular knife is a Sheffield, so you know you get a certain quality with that. But they still were really only made to accomplish certain things. Despite having a marlin spike, it's not a sailors knife, unless they really reworked the head of the utility blade. That blade will not cut rope. Wasn't made for it, wrong blade for it. But as a general army knife it will do. But in the army, that knife is not a weapon. And it wasn't designed to be one. It's barely a whittling knife. Utility blades like this were basically scissors. Anything you would use scissors for, you'd use this knife for. But it's wide enough that it can carve (badly) if it absolutely has to, so it is something of a shaping tool. That's really why it locks. If it were just used as scissors they wouldn't bother. It was designed to fulfill those tasks, and only those tasks. It will fail in a combat situation. It failed opening a can apparently. So taking that knife and attacking a woman in the torso, hitting ribs, possibly hitting the ground in the struggle, this blade will fail catastrophically. You will simply be left with a handle to beat her with. Not because it's a bad knife, it's quite a good knife. But because it just wasn't designed to do that. Especially with mass produced knives, which weren't as good as individually forged knives yet.

Akin to how if your car gets hit by a train, your car will fail to protect you. All the airbags may deploy, your seatbelt may hold you in, the roll cage may keep the car from crunching down on you as it flips, but the car simply isn't enough to protect you from a train. It will fail.

But the bayonets of the day (if I recall correctly) were the spike variant used until WWI. Bayonets started out as daggers, went to a spike design, and then back to daggers by WWII. The spikes were typically schlager blades (leaf shaped blades) or diamond blades (think of a fencing foil). The diamond blades were easier to produce, so soldiers typically ended up with one of those. A wound made by a diamond blade (and I have a really interesting scar to prove it) comes out looking like an oval. it can be a little more square given certain circumstances, but most it looks like a ragged oval. A marlin spike wound looks like you just hammered a nail in someone. It's very much a puncture. But a large one. and definitely circular. So it could look like a bayonet wound. Pretty easily.

The problem is that I have a hard time thinking that a nation of fisherman produced doctors that had never seen one of the many marlin spike misses (usually in the palm) afflicting these fisherman every day. It was a common enough wound that I would think a coroner would either recognize it, or at least bring it up as a possibility.

Hello Errata

Hmm yes. Bayonet or marlin spike? I could envisage a scenario where the knife blade breaks off and the marlin spike blade was used for a final stab - I think it would probably hold for one stab. Frenzied, or at least very angry attack. Did soldiers always carry their bayonets in their free time?

Best wishes

C4

[Michael W Richards]

But the bayonets of the day (if I recall correctly) were the spike variant used until WWI. Bayonets started out as daggers, went to a spike design, and then back to daggers by WWII. The spikes were typically schlager blades (leaf shaped blades) or diamond blades (think of a fencing foil). The diamond blades were easier to produce, so soldiers typically ended up with one of those. A wound made by a diamond blade (and I have a really interesting scar to prove it) comes out looking like an oval. it can be a little more square given certain circumstances, but most it looks like a ragged oval.

I own a bayonet collection,... Boer war, WW1 and 2,...mostly UK and US manufacture, with some pieces pre-dating the US Civil War and they are in a variety of shapes. The tri-edge, the" Leaf" style as you mentioned, Broad and Narrow...which some WW1 personelle used to dig personal trenches with, the short sword and dagger variety...etc.

The thing about this particular instance of usage is that military and ex-military were entitled to wear their short swords and bayonets on Bank Holidays. Based on that fact and the stories of soliders being seen in pairs out on the Holiday, a plausible story seems to fit this case....one soldier wreaking havoc on Martha with whatever knife he had on his person, in this case a folding pen knife, and a second person, also a soldier, finishing the attack with his bayonet, and then getting his mate away from the scene.

The soldier story with Pearly Poll is only relevant in that it confirms pairs of soldiers were out together that night, but her call to identify whom she was with and saw with Martha seems useless...due to the time they parted.

[Errata]

The only way to know is to know what kind of bruising she had. If she looked like she was beaten with fists as well as being stabbed, that's a shorter knife, like a penknife or a small fixed blade. Shorter blade, shorter hilt, making the act of stabbing almost exactly the same as punching. So he would be slamming his hand into her body in order to drive the knife it. If there are hilt marks, we know it was a longer blade, or at least a longer handle. The hand is enough clear of the hilt that the fist makes no contact with the body, even if the hilt does. If there is no hilt mark and no bruising, that's a long blade, and a certain amount of control by the wielder in not cutting through the body. Which can be very easy with something the length of the average bayonet. Uncontrolled stabbing with a bayonet would leave exit wounds in her back. Tiny ones, because presumably her back was on a hard surface, but not so small as they could be missed.

Epee blades (the triangle blades) make such a unique wound that unless it was twisted (and through bone that seems hard to manage) it could not be mistaken for anything else except maybe another puncturing weapon. So if the guy says it's a bayonet wound, I assume he means the epee blade type. There is no way to distinguish a dagger bayonet from a dagger. So had he thought it was a dagger style wound, he would have probably said he thought it was a dagger.

Here's how I know. I was in a production of Peter Pan when I was 16, and while sword fighting Hook the top two inches of his blade snapped off. I missed a block because I was watching this happen and his fencing weapon (which is an epee blade) entered the right side of my right breast and exited out the left side. In horror, he pulled it out, twisting as he pulled. The scar on the left side looks like a wonky triangle. The scar on the right is a ragged oval. Anyone who has ever seen the scar knows exactly what happened to me, without even knowing blades at all. "Did you get stabbed with a fencing foil or something?" Yes. Yes I did. So it's a pretty distinct mark.

Bayonets are not the only knives that use that blade. Many stilettos do as well, and obviously fencing weapons, some trench knives. On the other hand, diamond shape blades were also pretty popular and make similar wounds. It's an elongated diamond and not a triangular cross section, but neither is the flat oval you see with most every other kind of knife. And while I'm not personally familiar with diamond bladed bayonets, certainly diamond bladed combat knives existed, so I assume there are diamond bladed bayonets out there. Maybe not many because they wouldn't be as flexible, but then again half the bayonets made never actually attached to a rifle. I suppose they could, but no one ever did. Blows the accuracy of the rifle.

[SuspectZero]

Hi SuspectZero,

I take it you mean Nathan Kaminski? Are you suggesting JtR was an acquaintance of his?

No. The person I'm referring to lived on Black Lion Rd. They had a direct connection to JTR. It was not Nathan Kominski, although it's possible they knew each other.

[The Good Michael]

I own a bayonet collection,... Boer war, WW1 and 2,...mostly UK and US manufacture, with some pieces pre-dating the US Civil War and they are in a variety of shapes. The tri-edge, the" Leaf" style as you mentioned, Broad and Narrow...which some WW1 personelle used to dig personal trenches with, the short sword and dagger variety...etc.

The thing about this particular instance of usage is that military and ex-military were entitled to wear their short swords and bayonets on Bank Holidays. Based on that fact and the stories of soliders being seen in pairs out on the Holiday, a plausible story seems to fit this case....one soldier wreaking havoc on Martha with whatever knife he had on his person, in this case a folding pen knife, and a second person, also a soldier, finishing the attack with his bayonet, and then getting his mate away from the scene.

The soldier story with Pearly Poll is only relevant in that it confirms pairs of soldiers were out together that night, but her call to identify whom she was with and saw with Martha seems useless...due to the time they parted.

Do any of these bayonets you own have narrow blades?

Mike

[Michael W Richards]

Do any of these bayonets you own have narrow blades?

Mike

Some do, yep. They are usually the longest blades as well, some well over a foot long. The practical application of the blade usually defines the shape, some are multi purpose implements, like the shorter broad blade for digging personal trenches, and some.. when detached, served as short sword.

The breadth of Marthas wound seems to indicate, to me anyway, a dagger.

[Errata]

Some do, yep. They are usually the longest blades as well, some well over a foot long. The practical application of the blade usually defines the shape, some are multi purpose implements, like the shorter broad blade for digging personal trenches, and some.. when detached, served as short sword.

The breadth of Marthas wound seems to indicate, to me anyway, a dagger.

Do we know the breadth of the wound?

[Errata]

Wait a minute.

To ask a possibly stupid question late in the day. Was Martha Tabram raped?

[Abby Normal]

Wait a minute.

To ask a possibly stupid question late in the day. Was Martha Tabram raped?

nope.

[Errata]

nope.

I've always seen that she had been "outraged" which is a Victorian euphemism for rape. Just not always. Had a brief moment where I assumed one of those who used that phrase actually knew what he was talking about.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

I've always seen that she had been "outraged" which is a Victorian euphemism for rape. Just not always. Had a brief moment where I assumed one of those who used that phrase actually knew what he was talking about.

There is something in the autopsy report that says that no intimacy took place.

[Errata]

There is something in the autopsy report that says that no intimacy took place.

Maybe, but it's not on the part of the report posted here, nor is it in the Inquest notes. I had thought not, but then got turned around by the guy running the inquest saying she had been "outraged". I started to question myself and couldn't immediately find the answer.

[Michael W Richards]

Do we know the breadth of the wound?

Ive checked my notes to see if that dimension is mentioned in specific terms and it isnt, which means that my statement is based upon the description with a logical interpretation of the phrasing.

"In his opinion the wounds were caused by a knife, or some such instrument, but there was a wound on the chest bone which could not have been caused by a knife. An ordinary penknife could have made most of the wounds, but the puncture in the chest must have been made with a sword bayonet or a dagger."

A penknife blade width has obvious limitations, for one, because even folded it still needs to be pocket sized. I assumed that the way the wounds size was differentiated was because of the width, not the length of the blade, because penknives (folding knives) did and still do come in lengths almost equal to the length of the average dagger.

[Errata]

Ive checked my notes to see if that dimension is mentioned in specific terms and it isnt, which means that my statement is based upon the description with a logical interpretation of the phrasing.

"In his opinion the wounds were caused by a knife, or some such instrument, but there was a wound on the chest bone which could not have been caused by a knife. An ordinary penknife could have made most of the wounds, but the puncture in the chest must have been made with a sword bayonet or a dagger."

A penknife blade width has obvious limitations, for one, because even folded it still needs to be pocket sized. I assumed that the way the wounds size was differentiated was because of the width, not the length of the blade, because penknives (folding knives) did and still do come in lengths almost equal to the length of the average dagger.

Well they do come big, but far more often a folding knife blade doesn't get longer that about three to four inches. Which is plenty long enough to injure the organs that were stabbed. The thing about a bayonet is that the epee bladed bayonets make a very distinctive wound. One that a coroner would look at and say "Oh that was a bayonet". Th only difference between a dagger bayonet and a dagger is that the dagger bayonet has a collar on it that allows it to be strapped to a rifle. So it's weird to me that the coroner would even mention a bayonet as opposed to just saying dagger. It makes me think that he meant the epee bladed bayonet, because he saw something that was distinguishing. But I'm with you, I think it had to be a dagger blade.

There are ways a single weapon can produce wounds of various widths. It's not as common as two weapons producing two distinct types of wound, but in an attack situation it is more likely, because of the relative oddity of a killer having two weapons on him. Or going back for another knife. Especially since even a swiss army knife can kill someone easily if you don't confine yourself to attacking the midsection. A small blade to the eye will effectively kill someone, and throat slashing is always an option.

One way a single weapon can make different wound types is if it breaks. Another option is a curved blade. Or a Kris blade. Which were not common among the regular population, but a Kris blade can create a wound twice as wide as the actual blade. And the first couple of inches of a Kris blade are relatively straight, so make a much thinner wound if used with control. Of course another option is that the first weapon wasn't a knife at all, but something like a nail. Switching from the rage with a found object to a more deliberate wound with a weapon is pretty common, and might produce these wounds without having two knives. It's possible.