Martha’s final wound

[Fisherman]

Hi Fish
I tend to agree with this.

I think the ripper was used to carrying around the smaller/pen knife around with him, probably at all times.

He attacked millwood with it, realized it wasn't enough to do the trick, and got a larger knife. When he attacked tabram, he resorted to the smaller knife as he was used to doing in the heat of the moment and when that didn't do the trick, used the larger one to finish her off.

I have a question though for you and all-is there any evidence that any of the wounds inflicted on tabram came after the skirt was lifted? as in-wounds that didn't go through the clothes? or were all the stabs through her clothes?

I can´t say, Abby - her dress was thrown up, but she received stabs to many places, piercing heart, lungs, liver, spleen... some stabs would have gone through the fabric, others may not have. I don´t think that I have ever seen any listing of what did and what did not.

[Errata]

Hello Errata

Interesting theory! However there were clasp knives with guards, so that the blade could be locked in place.

Best wishes
C4

I know, I'm not talking about the blade snapping shut, though I suppose that the locking mechanism could be overwhelmed. I'm talking about it coming apart. The blade is attached to the handle by a simple hinge with a pin through it. If that pin snaps or loosens, the blade falls off the handle. Sometimes spectacularly if it happens during a blow of significant force. The pins back then were typically brass. Fairly strong, highly prone to casting flaws. And those pins did, and still do give way. Especially when you use force they were not designed for.

I mean, if the blade snapped shut, he likely succeeded in burying the blade into his own fingers and hand, so that's just an entirely different problem. I always thought clasp knives were problematic for these murders. Certainly not impossible, just not even remotely the best tool for the job. And i figure the blade snaps shut just once, which was likely, and he would switch to a different kind of knife.

[miss marple]

I found an interesting article in the Leicester Mercury 18th July 1889 about the testing of bayonets used by the British army.Apparently 60 per cent of them were useless. I have been trying to download this. I cant do it.Can anyone? so I think that reduces the odds of bayonets being used in the murder of Tabram.

Miss Marple

[curious4]

I know, I'm not talking about the blade snapping shut, though I suppose that the locking mechanism could be overwhelmed. I'm talking about it coming apart. The blade is attached to the handle by a simple hinge with a pin through it. If that pin snaps or loosens, the blade falls off the handle. Sometimes spectacularly if it happens during a blow of significant force. The pins back then were typically brass. Fairly strong, highly prone to casting flaws. And those pins did, and still do give way. Especially when you use force they were not designed for.

I mean, if the blade snapped shut, he likely succeeded in burying the blade into his own fingers and hand, so that's just an entirely different problem. I always thought clasp knives were problematic for these murders. Certainly not impossible, just not even remotely the best tool for the job. And i figure the blade snaps shut just once, which was likely, and he would switch to a different kind of knife.

I thought this looked interesting, especially the marlin spike blade.

http://m.gunstar.co.uk/rare-victorian-british-military-folding-three-blade-lock-kni/Blades/807736

Best wishes
C4

[Michael W Richards]

Nope. It is unknown which wound was the last. If the wound into the sternum killed her, it could have taken several minutes for her to bleed out, and she probably would have lost consciousness quickly. After paralyzing her so to speak, he would have had time to jab anywhere he felt like. There is nothing about Killeen's statement that tells us the order of stabs. It is logical to assume a deeper one was done at a different time than the other, but everyone is on this kick that two weapons were used. Could have been short frantic thrusts, followed by an angry deep stab that made her cease struggling, and then the rest. There is no way to know.

Mike

If the dagger or bayonet wound was first, then there is no reason for him changing knives to stay around and stab her 39 more times as well. It seems pretty clear that the bayonet wound finished the attack.

[Errata]

I thought this looked interesting, especially the marlin spike blade.

http://m.gunstar.co.uk/rare-victorian-british-military-folding-three-blade-lock-kni/Blades/807736

Best wishes
C4

Marlin spikes are surprisingly useful. And if any folding blade made that sternal wound, it would be a marlin spike, which was made to punch through bone. Much thinner bone, a fish skull, but still bone. On the other hand, I don't think there are marlin spikes out there that would punch through the sternum and pierce the heart. They tend to be max three inches long, and the sternum is a good half inch thick. Maybe if it was a shallow wound to the heart... And marlin spikes have the same weak point as any other folding blade. Which is the hinge.

Bu really useful. Far more useful for picking knots than spiking marlins.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Two things in Killeen's report

1- "(...) The heart was rather fatty, and was penetrated in one place, but there was otherwise nothing in the heart to cause death, although there was some blood in the pericardium. (...)"

2- "Death was due to hemorrhage and loss of blood"

Am I reading this wrong, or does this mean the stab to the heart wasn't fatale.

[Errata]

1- "(...) The heart was rather fatty, and was penetrated in one place, but there was otherwise nothing in the heart to cause death, although there was some blood in the pericardium. (...)"

2- "Death was due to hemorrhage and loss of blood"

Am I reading this wrong, or does this mean the stab to the heart wasn't fatale.

It would be fatal, no one could have survived a punctured atrium, or even a nicking of a major blood vessel. Damage to the heart could not be surgically repaired at that point, so whether it was a slow leak or a fast one, it would have killed her.

But there only being some blood in the pericardium might mean that she was dead by the time that happened. Which would make sense given the amount of catastrophic injuries she suffered prior to the heart wound. But if her heart was still pumping when she received that wound, her pericardium should have been full and leaking blood into the chest cavity through the tear in the pericardium.

But then again, it was hours before she was found, so perhaps the blood had leaked out almost completely in that time.

[The Good Michael]

It would be fatal, no one could have survived a punctured atrium, or even a nicking of a major blood vessel. Damage to the heart could not be surgically repaired at that point, so whether it was a slow leak or a fast one, it would have killed her.

But that doesn't mean it was THE fatal stab wound. There were several that may have done the trick. No telling by us which one was first last or in the middle.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

1- "(...) The heart was rather fatty, and was penetrated in one place, but there was otherwise nothing in the heart to cause death, although there was some blood in the pericardium. (...)"

2- "Death was due to hemorrhage and loss of blood"

Am I reading this wrong, or does this mean the stab to the heart wasn't fatale.

She could have been dying from other wounds and then this was done, so the others may have been the ones that were going to kill her. Killeen doesn't tell us exactly what he thinks. This two weapon thing is just an idea on his part based upon one wound being deeper. If he wanted to think a pen-knife did all the others, which I don't think he meant to say, he would have spelled it out. It seems to me that his response was due to someone's suggestion that a small concealed knife could have done the work. "The wounds generally might have been inflicted by a (pen) knife, but such an instrument could not have inflicted one of the wounds, which went through the chest-bone. His opinion was that one of the wounds was inflicted by some kind of dagger, and that all of them were caused during life. "

He is saying the shallower wounds could have been done by a pen knife, but not that they were. This has let to this ...faith-based idea that two different weapons had to have been used. This is not true. It is all up for speculation despite misguided attempts to take people down one path or another.

Mike

[SuspectZero]

It seems apparent that Martha Tabram’s final wound, the one to the sternum, is the one that killed her. It broke through her "chest-bone", and penetrated her heart, killing her instantly.

One theory that is widely believed is that a sailor, with both a pen-knife & a dagger on his person, was responsible for her death. Many people also believe that Martha was an earlier victim of JtR, therefore resulting in some to believe JtR was a sailor. But what if Martha’s killer was JtR, but not a sailor, and did not carry 2 knives around with him on the night in question?

Is it possible that her killer, after a failed attempt on Annie Millwood five & a half months earlier, which had left her alive to potentially ID him, was anxious not to leave another victim alive? And what if the pen-knife, even though it had inflicted many terrible wounds, had not yet killed her even after 38 stabs? If Martha lay unconscious and gurgling in her own blood, I suspect the killer may have had to come up with a plan B.

So if the killer did not have another knife on his person at the time, but lived nearby, is it possible he could have ventured home to get a larger knife or dagger, and then come back to where an unconscious Martha still lay, and inflicted the final stab to the chest, which penetrated her heart?

If he was fearful that there be any chance that she could live long enough to ID him, I think this is a gamble he would take to protect his identity. It was still dark, most people were still asleep, and Martha would have been largely invisible, hidden in the dark as she was, on the first floor landing - so it was a risk to be sure, but a calculated risk.

Is it possible that Martha’s killer lived locally, and after the pen-knife failed to kill her, went home and got a bigger knife to finish her off?

He didn't live nearby but he had access to someone who did in Black Lion Yard.

[The Good Michael]

It seems apparent that Martha Tabram’s final wound, the one to the sternum, is the one that killed her. It broke through her "chest-bone", and penetrated her heart, killing her instantly.

Killeen doesn't say the wound that pierced her sternum is the same that pierced her heart. He mentions the heart wound first and says the heart was fine. Later he mentions an instrument piercing the sternum which a penknife couldn't do. Putting the two together, though perhaps a logical conclusion, is not even suggested by Killeen.

Mike

[Pandora]

He didn't live nearby but he had access to someone who did in Black Lion Yard.

Hi SuspectZero,

I take it you mean Nathan Kaminski? Are you suggesting JtR was an acquaintance of his?

[curious4]

Marlin spikes are surprisingly useful. And if any folding blade made that sternal wound, it would be a marlin spike, which was made to punch through bone. Much thinner bone, a fish skull, but still bone. On the other hand, I don't think there are marlin spikes out there that would punch through the sternum and pierce the heart. They tend to be max three inches long, and the sternum is a good half inch thick. Maybe if it was a shallow wound to the heart... And marlin spikes have the same weak point as any other folding blade. Which is the hinge.

Bu really useful. Far more useful for picking knots than spiking marlins.

Hello Errata

The main blade is 3.35 inches but has most probably been repointed, indicating that it was longer (seems like they did break off) and the knife is military issue of the period). The marley spike blade looks longer and could (I think) have penetrated the sternum. Didn't need to be that long but would give a different shape to a wound. I know you are the knife expert.

http://m.gunstar.co.uk/rare-victorian-british-military-folding-three-blade-lock-kni/Blades/807736

Best wishes
C4

[curious4]

Hello Errata

The main blade is 3.35 inches but has most probably been repointed, indicating that it was longer (seems like they did break off) and the knife is military issue of the period). The marley spike blade looks longer and could (I think) have penetrated the sternum. Didn't need to be that long but would give a different shape to a wound. I know you are the knife expert.

http://m.gunstar.co.uk/rare-victorian-british-military-folding-three-blade-lock-kni/Blades/807736

Best wishes
C4

Sorry, meant marlin spike. Lots of sailors in our family and it was always referred to as a marley spike. (Word has a Swedish origin, I believe).

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C4