2 types of knives = 2 people?

[DVV]

Killeen never said Bayonet during his original examination. He said dagger.

And that's even worse.

No forensic expert can look at wound and tell you "it's a dagger, not a knife", or "it's a knife, not a dagger".

Time to realize how plain stupid it would be.

[Harry D]

And that's even worse.

No forensic expert can look at wound and tell you "it's a dagger, not a knife", or "it's a knife, not a dagger".

Time to realize how plain stupid it would be.

That's not a knife. THIS is a knife!

[Errata]

Splendid.

Then how could Killeen say "bayonet" (one edge) or "dagger" (two edges) ?

Obviously not what he had observed.

Yeah I said that wrong. There was supposed to be a "not" in there. Bayonets are dual edged. As are daggers. Knives are not.

[DVV]

Mein gott.
Whatever.
If Killeen had observed that one weapon had one edge and another had two, he would have worded it clearly.

[Tom_Wescott]

Killeen never suggested it was a bayonet, though he conceded at the time it could have been. Subsequent police opinion as I noted in my book is that it was not consistent with a bayonet. I personally think the wound was inflicted with a stiletto sword stick as observed by George R. Simms in his fictional story published in the weeks after the Tabram murder. But sure, it could have been a dagger.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[DVV]

But sure, it could have been a dagger.

Indeed. Since it could have been a knife.

[Tom_Wescott]

Indeed. Since it could have been a knife.

A double-sided knife, but then that would be a dagger.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Errata]

All blades under 24" in length are knives. As opposed to swords.

All daggers are knives. Not all knives are daggers.

All daggers are dual edged. All bayonets are dual (or triple) edged.

All bayonets are daggers. Not all daggers are bayonets.

The only thing that separates a bayonet from a dagger is the hardware that attaches the blade to a rifle. Solder a ring clamp on a dagger, and it's a bayonet.

And for clarity, a stiletto sword cane is also a dagger. It says it's a sword, but that's a lie. It's too short. But solder a ring clamp on a sword cane and it's a bayonet.

We can call it a sword cane, a stiletto, a trench knife, or a switchblade. They are different knives. But the blade is all the same. Thin bodied, needled tip. All of those are stilettos. Same blade, different clothing. They are all knives. They are all daggers. But somebody looking at a stab wound with any professional sense will call it a dagger. They can tell from the wound that it is not just any knife. It is dual edged. It is a dagger. They may be able to state with some authority that it is likely a stiletto, assuming that there was no sawing at the wound masking the blade width. Beyond that, unless the knife in question is still sticking out of the victim's chest, he cannot say. And should not say.

Knife
-Dagger
-Stiletto
-Sword Cane

Just like


Animal
-Mammal
-Feline
-Tiger

[DVV]

All that science can't drown a fish.

[DVV]

A double-sided knife, but then that would be a dagger.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

But if it was a dagger, why suggest a bayonet ?
Still waiting for a single word from Killeen about one or two edges.
End of the story : Tabram has been stabbed by a knife.

[Batman]

End of the story : Tabram has been stabbed by a knife.

Which clashes with what the Inquest found...

http://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_tabram.html

The witness did not think all the wounds were inflicted with the same instrument.

Plus the fact she was stabbed 39 times.

39 Times is more like a gang related attack than by a single hand. Its like the Assassination of Julias Caesar.

I'm not saying its impossible for 1 hand to do nearly 40 knife wounds but the jury returned a verdict to the effect that the deceased had been murdered by some person or persons unknown.

[Rosella]

Yes, but coronial juries always bring in a verdict of 'wilful murder against some person or persons unknown' in cases where the murderer hasn't been found or maybe have murdered in company. It's not a pointer to that particular jury's belief in Martha having been killed by more than one person.

She was repeatedly stabbed (not slashed) on her breast, stomach and abdomen, wounds 'apparently inflicted by a pen-knife' according to the surgeon's report still held at the Met.

Martha's killer was quite obviously enraged and the wound on her breastbone had been inflicted with a strong long-bladed weapon that could have been a bayonet or a dagger.

She could have been killed by a gang but she could just as easily have been finished off by one strong determined and angry individual who possessed both a dagger and a shorter penknife.

[DVV]

Yeah, she's been stabbed by 39 persons unknown.
The last one had waited too long for his turn to come, no wonder he was so angry and reached for his baydagger (one edge and half, for those who don't know).
Poor Martha.
For once, she had 39 customers and was so happy.
How cruel.

[DVV]

Time to eat more fish

I can see some people are pretty confident a penknife or a claspknife has been used.
Will I spend my time explaining how funny and stupid it is to think Killeen could know she'd been stabbed by a folding knife ?

[Tom_Wescott]

But if it was a dagger, why suggest a bayonet ?
Still waiting for a single word from Killeen about one or two edges.
End of the story : Tabram has been stabbed by a knife.

Maybe you're right, but it's hard to get around Killeen's clear statement that it was a 'dagger' which is taken to mean a knife sharp on both sides. I can't see any other reason why he would have stated 'dagger' if this was not the case. Killeen did not suggest a bayonet, but perhaps did not know enough about them to say it wasn't a bayonet. He was quite young, after all. The wound was later determined too narrow to have been a bayonet, which is why I feel a stiletto sword stick is the most likely weapon. It would be long, narrow, and sharp on both sides.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott