2 types of knives = 2 people?

[Wickerman]

There is : that wasn't a job for this poor little doctor.

Permission to conduct an autopsy is granted by the Coroner of the district.
The coroner knows which surgeon's are qualified to conduct an autopsy, it was not a first-come first-served scenario.

[Batman]

Another scenario that makes sense is that we have a dominant male and the subordinate male out on the town. The dominant male kills the prostitute or does her serious harm. Say the pen knife was used first. Then he dominates the subordinate male to also attack her to take part of the blame using peer-pressure. The subordinate drives the final blow through the chest with his blade.

In terms of JtR the dominant male resembles JtR with his pen knife attack. The subordinate doesn't resemble JtR.

The dominant male later progresses to more frenzied attacks of prostitutes in whitechapel because he has been seen by them.

Mary Ann Connelly, who was known as "Pearly Poll" was the witness being sent around to ID him.


Mary Ann Nichols was the next killed. She was also known as Polly Ann.

Annie Chapman was next.

Stride/Eddowes I can't account for this way...

Mary Kelly we can.

Using the words "Mary" and "Ann" we can account for 3/5 out of the canonical ripper victims being prostitutes JtR was looking for.

Stride/Eddowes I can account for if JtR is going around asking for names. He stops Stride to ask her questions. She becomes alarmed by him. He attacks. Schwartz sees him. He makes a Jewish slur. Runs off after killing Stride. Could the same again have happened with Eddowes? This part doesn't make sense. The other 3 do.

However if JtR was out on the town, he may have taken the subordinate with him which may have some explanatory power during the Stride encounter with the second man.

All of this gets tied together with Tabram's murder and witness. This means she was a ripper victim if we accept the above scenario of punters who killed a prostitute (Tabram) out to get the witness (Mary Ann Connelly).

[DVV]

Permission to conduct an autopsy is granted by the Coroner of the district.
The coroner knows which surgeon's are qualified to conduct an autopsy, it was not a first-come first-served scenario.

Killeen was called to examine the body because he lived in the neighbourhood, that's all.
And he was so qualified that we don't hear of him afterwards.

[Errata]

There is a problem with Martha Tabram that we don't have with the c5. She was stabbed. Not cut.

Which is actually not a problem, but leaves very little room for interpretation. Stabs are easy. A stab wound gives a really good idea of the shape and sharpness of a blade. But most importantly stab wounds can nail down the length of the blade the way cuts never can. There are equations and stuff, but generally looking at someone in a stabbing frenzy the blade is always going in 3/4 to completely into the flesh. Down to the hilt. Because we know what organs were punctured, how deep in those organs are, and how thick those organs are, we know roughly how deep the knife penetrated, which is no more than three inches. So we are looking at a 3 to 4 inch knife.

There is no way a bayonet made those 38 wounds. Impossible. So we have a choice. A bayonet was not used at all, or two blades were used. There is no description of the sternum wound, so I have no idea what made it. I know a bayonet could. I doubt a pen knife or any clasp knife did it. If she was seen with sailors, My first guess would have been a marlin spike. It would be like hammering a nail into the sternum. But I don't know. We cannot rule out a bayonet based on her injuries, but we can rule out that only a bayonet made those injuries.

[SirJohnFalstaff]

Be it dagger or bayonet there is still no explanation why a single killer performs a bone puncturing kill strike and then messes around with a pen knife after during mutilation when the dagger type blade has much more abilities for that.

Its like using a spoon to cut meat after you have used a steak knife.

If the mutilation is the ultimate goal and the murder is the way to be able to do it quietly, you have an answer.

Like I said, dagger through the sternum first. Leave the dagger there, puncture the body after with second blade.

If we consider Tabram a JtR victim, we can also think that the way to allow the killer changed/evolved into something more efficient. But the goal remained the same.

[RockySullivan]

Another scenario that makes sense is that we have a dominant male and the subordinate male out on the town. The dominant male kills the prostitute or does her serious harm. Say the pen knife was used first. Then he dominates the subordinate male to also attack her to take part of the blame using peer-pressure. The subordinate drives the final blow through the chest with his blade.

In terms of JtR the dominant male resembles JtR with his pen knife attack. The subordinate doesn't resemble JtR.

The dominant male later progresses to more frenzied attacks of prostitutes in whitechapel because he has been seen by them.

Mary Ann Connelly, who was known as "Pearly Poll" was the witness being sent around to ID him.


Mary Ann Nichols was the next killed. She was also known as Polly Ann.

Annie Chapman was next.

Stride/Eddowes I can't account for this way...

Mary Kelly we can.

Using the words "Mary" and "Ann" we can account for 3/5 out of the canonical ripper victims being prostitutes JtR was looking for.

Stride/Eddowes I can account for if JtR is going around asking for names. He stops Stride to ask her questions. She becomes alarmed by him. He attacks. Schwartz sees him. He makes a Jewish slur. Runs off after killing Stride. Could the same again have happened with Eddowes? This part doesn't make sense. The other 3 do.

However if JtR was out on the town, he may have taken the subordinate with him which may have some explanatory power during the Stride encounter with the second man.

All of this gets tied together with Tabram's murder and witness. This means she was a ripper victim if we accept the above scenario of punters who killed a prostitute (Tabram) out to get the witness (Mary Ann Connelly).

I'm not sure about the names being clues, Mary & Ann were fairly common names but I do think the ripper may have been a team. The pipe man brandished a knife in one of Schwartz accounts. He could've been handing a knife to BS man. It's possible the lookout carried a knife and BS man had one also. They could have split up after a murder. I think a duo makes the most sense. Criminals who knew the mugging spot Paul referred too. Each could've carried a knife and I think likely two worked together to be able to dump the torso pieces two. It's a two man job and a two knife job perhaps also.

[lynn cates]

Marie

Hello Batman. Interesting conjecture. But if she really went by "Marie" . . . ?

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Killeen was called to examine the body because he lived in the neighbourhood, that's all.
And he was so qualified that we don't hear of him afterwards.

You apparently do not know what "Licenciate" means.

Dr Timothy Killeen.
Licenciate of the Royal College of Surgeons, Ireland, 1885.
Licenciate of the Kings and Queens College of Physicians, Ireland, 1886.

It means he is qualified to teach.

Licentiate is the title of a person who holds an academic degree known as a licence or a licentiate.[1] The term derives from Latin licentia, freedom (from Latin licere, to allow), which is applied in the phrases licentia docendi meaning permission to teach and licentia ad practicandum signifying someone who holds a certificate of competence to practise a profession.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licentiate

Here is an advertising circular which lists the qualifications of those surgeons who are to provide instruction at this Institute.

http://www.pdavis.nl/Medical.htm

Notice how many surgeons hold the same qualifications as Killeen.

[DVV]

It means he is qualified to teach.

Which you are not, obviously.

[Batman]

Since the Mary Ann connection is off-topic a little for this thread I started a new one here...

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?p=321004#post321004

The only reason I brought it up is because if Tabram is ground zero so to say, then it may hold explanatory power for the others in the series.

I still think the main reason why they suggested a bayonet or dagger for the chest bone puncture was because basically they had seem them before in wars/war wounds.

[DVV]

I still think the main reason why they suggested a bayonet or dagger for the chest bone puncture was because basically they had seem them before in wars/war wounds.

Hi Batman,

It's not "they", it was only Killeen.
The police did not put much faith in Killeen's nonsensical dagger/bayonet during the automn, since Martha was generally considered a ripper victim.

[Batman]

Hi Batman,

It's not "they", it was only Killeen.
The police did not put much faith in Killeen's nonsensical dagger/bayonet during the automn, since Martha was generally considered a ripper victim.

It is less likely a chest bone on such a heavy woman was pierced with a clasp knife. That is Killeen's rational.

I say its a logical conclusion.

If he said the chest bone was pierced with a clasp knife he would be under fire... and rightly so.

[DVV]

It is less likely a chest bone on such a heavy woman was pierced with a clasp knife. That is Killeen's rational.

I say its a logical conclusion.

If he said the chest bone was pierced with a clasp knife he would be under fire... and rightly so.

Funny.
Now Killeen knew it was a claspknife.
Ask him what color was the handle, he will tell you.

[DVV]

As far as I know, a dagger or a knife can have similar blade - same length, same width. Did the supposed clasp-pen-knife make mere superficial wounds ? No. Far from it.
As for the bayonet, see my tomahawk post.

[Errata]

I still think the main reason why they suggested a bayonet or dagger for the chest bone puncture was because basically they had seem them before in wars/war wounds.

There are a lot of reasons he may have suggested a bayonet, not the least of which was because it was a bayonet. We have no idea what that puncture looked like, or how much damage was done with it.

A bayonet wound looks like a dagger wound, because at this point bayonets look like daggers, except longer. There is no war or battle wound I can think of that he could have seen where it would have been the old spike bayonet model, and even then spike bayonets looked like stilettos because they were essentially stilettos. I think he said bayonet because the suspects were military, and military could carry around their bayonet. It probably would have been clearer to say that the sternum wound was "not inconsistent" with a bayonet or dagger, but they didn't use such qualifying language back then.

But he did make the caveat that it might have been a dagger. Now a dagger is a useless term other than it indicates some kind of combat knife (not a kitchen blade for example) and likely but not necessarily is double edged. What is certain is that it is longer than a pen knife blade. And usually wider. A Bayonet is a specific guess. But saying it was a dagger is about as illuminating as saying that she was wounded.