Comparing with Tabrum with non Ripper victims.

[Abby Normal]

Don't put that pitchfork away yet--you haven't heard my other unpopular opinions! LMAO!

I would love to hear why you think Stride may not have been soliciting the night of her death, if you care to share.

hi bone

because she had recently broken up with kidney. and was seen with peaked cap man over the course of the evening by several witnesses. i postulate that she was out having a good time and or looking for a new boyfriend. not soliciting per se. but thats just me lol

[bonestrewn]

hi bone
i wont run you off with a pitch fork, since ive been saying for years that tabram, nichols and kelly may all have been asleep and or passed out drunk when they were killed. I also think that the evidence shows that stride and kelly may not have been actively soliciting the nights of their murders. however this has nothing to do, for me, as to whether or not they were prostitutes, casual prostitutes or whatever. The facts of their backgrounds and circs show IMHO that they were probably all prostitutes.

however, they all could have also easily all been awake and actively soliciting when they were murdered.

re zodiac. totally different animal than the ripper. zodiac was a lovers lane, thrill kill type sk.no post mortem interest. ripper was a postmortem lust mort type serial killer.

think david berkowitz vs jeffrey dahmer.

Don't put that pitchfork away yet--you haven't heard my other unpopular opinions! LMAO!

I would love to hear why you think Stride may not have been soliciting the night of her death, if you care to share.

[scottnapa]

tabram had cuts to her privates. also the neck was targeted. knife used. signs of strangulation. classic example of an early clumsy kill in a serial killers progression. she was undoubtedly an early ripper victim.

Thanks for the comment.
I may have used an incorrect visual source for Martha's wound, as there were stomach and spleen wounds. Are the stomach cuts what you would call "her privates"? Perhaps there is a better visual on the site. Many of the questions asked about the Ripper murders are when did he begin and why did he stop? In studying the actions of murderers, overkill is inevitably involves a knife.
I agree that the Tabrum overkill speaks to an amateur at work, however the extraordinary number of wounds leads me to question your use of the word "classic" in reference to this crime.
Given my examples of emotional killers, they knew the victim, had no prior kills and made a little attempt to get away; perhaps you could give me three or four examples of killers who have inflicted 30 or 40 of wounds as a serial killer?

[Abby Normal]

Hi,

I found Tom Wescott's analysis of Tabram's murder in The Bank Holiday Murders extremely convincing and agree with Abby that her death reads to me like an early Ripper killing.

This opinion may have me run off with pitchforks (LOL--meant in good fun!!) but I also believe she was rough sleeping, rather than soliciting, at the time of her death, which would fit with a "young" Ripper seeking an easy target to kill as one of his first.

That being said, these diagrams are extremely helpful in terms of visualizing, and I appreciate the comparison to other significant murders of women. I do wonder if the Zodiac is a bit of a different "genre" from JTR, though, no matter how much he was clearly inspired by him.

hi bone
i wont run you off with a pitch fork, since ive been saying for years that tabram, nichols and kelly may all have been asleep and or passed out drunk when they were killed. I also think that the evidence shows that stride and kelly may not have been actively soliciting the nights of their murders. however this has nothing to do, for me, as to whether or not they were prostitutes, casual prostitutes or whatever. The facts of their backgrounds and circs show IMHO that they were probably all prostitutes.

however, they all could have also easily all been awake and actively soliciting when they were murdered.

re zodiac. totally different animal than the ripper. zodiac was a lovers lane, thrill kill type sk.no post mortem interest. ripper was a postmortem lust mort type serial killer.

think david berkowitz vs jeffrey dahmer.

[bonestrewn]

Hi,

I found Tom Wescott's analysis of Tabram's murder in The Bank Holiday Murders extremely convincing and agree with Abby that her death reads to me like an early Ripper killing.

This opinion may have me run off with pitchforks (LOL--meant in good fun!!) but I also believe she was rough sleeping, rather than soliciting, at the time of her death, which would fit with a "young" Ripper seeking an easy target to kill as one of his first.

That being said, these diagrams are extremely helpful in terms of visualizing, and I appreciate the comparison to other significant murders of women. I do wonder if the Zodiac is a bit of a different "genre" from JTR, though, no matter how much he was clearly inspired by him.

[Patrick Differ]

tabram had cuts to her privates. also the neck was targeted. knife used. signs of strangulation. classic example of an early clumsy kill in a serial killers progression. she was undoubtedly an early ripper victim.

I agree Abby. And again no one heard a thing yet they lived within feet of the murder. Overkill, controlled rage, silence, probing of a human? The MO is Ripper and how do you start if you never killed a human before? Was he testing human skin?

These comparisons are very interesting. I didnt know Harrison was stabbed 40 times.

Evidently the JtR mutilations are still very rare in the annals of serial murder. This is a great topic. Makes you think about the act of stabbing for sure.

[Abby Normal]

tabram had cuts to her privates. also the neck was targeted. knife used. signs of strangulation. classic example of an early clumsy kill in a serial killers progression. she was undoubtedly an early ripper victim.

[Sam Flynn]

Useful to see Tabram's wounds illustrated, Scott. It's always been clear to me that her killer's focus was almost literally the polar opposite of the other Whitechapel murders (especially the "canonical" ones) and stabs and cuts are very different things.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

Here's a list of all the non-JtR victims.

Emma Smith, Martha Tabram, Polly Nichols, Elizabeth Stride, Catherine Eddowes, Mary Jane Kelly and all subsequent victims.

Have a peaceful night.

Simon

[scottnapa]

I created a list of killings involving 30 to 40 stab wounds in a grid. (My brain works better in Excel.)
I had forgotten that George Harrison of the Beatles was stabbed 40 ties by a paranoid mental patient. Harrison survived. Good news , but it means he is an outliner, and not a match.

These other killings have many variables, different ages, countries, methods, weapons. Yet there are compelling patterns of similarity;
These are passive aggressive killers with obsession with victim, the killers knew the victims. Certainly this is the most consistent pattern that changes our view of the death of Martha. These are impulsive acts; a caldron of built up emotions bursts into rage of murderous violence; overkill is emotional. Rafi tried to strangle Sirsha, but she fainted but did not die, he told police he stabbed her until she stopped breathing. In fact, she was dead well before he finished thrusting. The killer is in a frenzy, he has an emotional clock. He does not notice when she stops breathing, he notices when his rage dissipates.. He stops when his emotional clock tells him it’s time. These themes of depression, substance abuse and social isolation are evident in the killer personalities. The efficiency of the Jack the Ripper killings is lacking in all cases.

There is little thought given to post murder actions, no trophies, no plan of escape or creation of an alibi; Nash hid under the bed when police entered. These are disorganized killers; there is little effort to hide crime. Derek Rosa wokes up and stabs mother 40 times as 14 day old baby sleeps nest to mother. Rosa took a selfie and called 911. There are senseless and repulsive actions that indicate lunacy, Dr. MA, scalped and disemboweled by lover. Juttu Sirisha, stabbed in the eyes with a screwdriver. Guidone killed his cat before his overdose. There is no evidence of any prior murderous actions, these murderers are NOT serial killers
There is an exception level of mutilation in these crimes, the crime committed on the victim is one of obliteration, The utter destrutction of the humanity of the victim, far beyond a simple murder. Tabrum has a simple pattern focused on a kill zone. There is more repetition in the wounds than obliteration in the Tabrum murder. I would suggest the obliteration would be emotional.
My final surprise was when I realized an obliteration of the victim is most evident in the murder of Mary Kelly.
The obliterator is who Jack the Ripper will become. I wasn't thinking I would end up with Mary Kelly conversation when I started looking at the Tabrum murder. How the Ripper evolved as a killer is clear, how he begins his journey is not. I am inclined to believe Tabrum knew her killer.
Thanks in advance for any comments.

[scottnapa]

Tabrum is stabbed 39 times. That level of overkill is relatively uncommon.
I thought to compare her wounds with those of two famous murders I am familiar with involving multiple stab wounds, here in California; Sharon Tate and Cecilia Shepard.

Tate 17 wounds. Shepard 14 wounds. It first look, the similarities between Tate and Shepard wound placement are very evident, indeed I thought it was extraordinary given how much the killers and situations differ. There reason for this similarity is that Tate and Shepard were in motion when attacked. Shepard on her back with her hands tied was rocking vigorously to escape. The Zodiac was frustrated by the ineffectiveness of his knife work. As she moved, his knife did not hit the intended target, she was stabbed in the arms, and the Zodiac’s blade was landing on bone not flesh. In frustration, he started to slash her. The Zodiac never used a knife again. Killing Stein with a pistol. I had forgotten that Shepard lived for two days in hospital before succumbing to her wounds. But that illustrates how a knife attack is rather different than the quick knife deaths one seen in movies.

Tate was tied to the ceiling rather by hope and stabbed as she spun and twisted on the rope, hence the unsuccessful stabs to the arms and legs. Tate died that night. However, it is not clear when. There is evidence that Charles Manson visited 10050 Cielo Drive, after the murders to check the “work” of his unexperienced “crew” and would have delivered the coup de gråce. As noted Manson accompanied his crew to LaBianca murders to show them how to “do it” efficiently
I realized there is no “overkill” element to the deaths of Tate and Shepard because the victims were not dead. The number of stabs were purposeful not emotional.

Tabrum’s killer made sure she died quickly with the number of strikes to the neck and heart. The overkill is emotion driven, there is no articulate or purposeful pattern. The excessive number of wounds to Tabrum are concentrated on the upper body. The lower body is ignored by comparison.
The Ripper rips. Tabrum is not ripped. This overkill has an undeniable sexual element to the repetition of penetrating knife thrusts.
There is no post-mortem curiosity and no attempt is made to eviscerate body parts. This murderer is singular.
For me the unique aspects to the Tabrum murder places it outside the Ripper genre.
I looked for better parallel cases to the murder of Martha Tabrum.