Comparing with Tabrum with non Ripper victims.

[Sam Flynn]

If you take just one of the reasons for suspecting that Tabram was a Ripper victim, I agree that that reason alone doesn't make a very compelling case for her being a Ripper murder. But when you put all of the reasons together, I think that they add up to the case for it being strong enough that I believe that it's more likely that she was a Ripper victim than that she wasn't.

Being a poverty-class woman living in Whitechapel in the late Summer/Autumn of 1888 and indulging in casual prostitution aren't sufficient criteria to rule her in, because those criteria applied to hundreds, if not thousands of unfortunates in the East End. I tend to focus on what clearly characterises Tabram's death - i.e. that she was killed in a frenzied shower of stab wounds to her neck and chest, which is completely different from any of the other WM's, never mind just the canonical Ripper victims.

[Abby Normal]

The JtR case is a compelling puzzle, however, this puzzle box holds a scant number of pieces
One of few pieces in the box is “posing the body”
By comparison, in the Zodiac case there is an array of evidence; fingerprints, eyewitness, ear witnesses, handwriting of true artifactes , threatening letters, codes, cyphers and over ten interesting suspects.

In the Ripper case, the suspect list is a oft whipped herd of dead horses; Lechmere,et.al.
Which witness is the most trustworthy? A very debated question. So few witnesses.
An internet search for Ripper clues finds pandora’s box of hoaxes – forged letters mailed to the press, a shawl without providence, an impossible diary, several desecrated paintings and a walking canes with a ripper face.

Body posing is valid indicator of behavior as one of the components of FBI profiling.
The best use of profiling is when the authorities have a suspect as one can eliminating suspects who do not fit the profile. profiling fails completely when we ask the system to find the killer in a phone book.

The wounds are the evidence, These gruesome mutilations and horrifying eviscerations and the skill needed to perform these acts tells us more than spreading the legs of a victim. Lifting a skirt is NOT evidence, a dead prostitute on her back is NOT evidence. Yes posing is significant. but the role it plays in a Ripper conversation is exagerated because there are so few puzzle pieces available.
Profiling is not evidence because killers don’t do the same thing every time.
How much should we focus on behavior, when each of the Ripper murders is different.
Imagine that only Tabrum and Mary Kelly were murdered, I doubt the Victorian police would connect the two crimes because the wounds and post-mortem behavior is drastically different.

ok youre getting warmer, although your last two sentences are off. each of the ripper murders are more similar than different and police at the time did think the TABRAM and Kelly murders were connected.

[scottnapa]

I'm going to annoy the forum by wearing my Hallie Rubenhold hat for a moment.

I realize Martha has been dead for nearly 137 years, but she was more than a human pincushion.

Out of respect to the victim, can we spell her name correctly?

Her name was Martha Tabram. There is no 'u' in her name. All the vowels are a's, so it's easy to remember.

Martha Tabram.

Thanks.

Thank you. A worthy point. My poor spelling should not be a distraction.

[rjpalmer]

I'm going to annoy the forum by wearing my Hallie Rubenhold hat for a moment.

I realize Martha has been dead for nearly 137 years, but she was more than a human pincushion.

Out of respect to the victim, can we spell her name correctly?

Her name was Martha Tabram. There is no 'u' in her name. All the vowels are a's, so it's easy to remember.

Martha Tabram.

Thanks.

[scottnapa]

The JtR case is a compelling puzzle, however, this puzzle box holds a scant number of pieces
One of few pieces in the box is “posing the body”
By comparison, in the Zodiac case there is an array of evidence; fingerprints, eyewitness, ear witnesses, handwriting of true artifactes , threatening letters, codes, cyphers and over ten interesting suspects.

In the Ripper case, the suspect list is a oft whipped herd of dead horses; Lechmere,et.al.
Which witness is the most trustworthy? A very debated question. So few witnesses.
An internet search for Ripper clues finds pandora’s box of hoaxes – forged letters mailed to the press, a shawl without providence, an impossible diary, several desecrated paintings and a walking canes with a ripper face.

Body posing is valid indicator of behavior as one of the components of FBI profiling.
The best use of profiling is when the authorities have a suspect as one can eliminating suspects who do not fit the profile. profiling fails completely when we ask the system to find the killer in a phone book.

The wounds are the evidence, These gruesome mutilations and horrifying eviscerations and the skill needed to perform these acts tells us more than spreading the legs of a victim. Lifting a skirt is NOT evidence, a dead prostitute on her back is NOT evidence. Yes posing is significant. but the role it plays in a Ripper conversation is exagerated because there are so few puzzle pieces available.
Profiling is not evidence because killers don’t do the same thing every time.
How much should we focus on behavior, when each of the Ripper murders is different.
Imagine that only Tabrum and Mary Kelly were murdered, I doubt the Victorian police would connect the two crimes because the wounds and post-mortem behavior is drastically different.

[Lewis C]

The victim having her dress/skirt lifted up means nothing in terms of it being a Ripper murder, given that (a) Tabram was a prostitute; and (b) even though her skirt WAS lifted up, her killer inflicted next to zero injuries - i.e. stabs - to her lower body.

There are umpteen cases of prostitute murders where the victim was found with her skirts hitched up or her pants pulled down.

If you take just one of the reasons for suspecting that Tabram was a Ripper victim, I agree that that reason alone doesn't make a very compelling case for her being a Ripper murder. But when you put all of the reasons together, I think that they add up to the case for it being strong enough that I believe that it's more likely that she was a Ripper victim than that she wasn't.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Gareth,

I think you're focussing a bit too much on the half empty part of the glass. The one victim was only stabbed and the other, besides the multiple stabs, was mutilated in Ripper-style with, amongst other things, her chest and abdomen cut open, flesh cut from her abdomen, severe cuts to the legs and a piece of belly wall taken away.

Now, I do agree with you that the attack on Tabram was frenzied, and would add that, if she was killed by the Ripper, then he certainly didn't go out with murder on his mind that night. At least, that's what I think. If she was killed by the Ripper, the attack on her happened on the spur of the moment, in my view, and ended with him making the three inch cut on her lower abdomen, causing a pool of blood being visible between her opened legs. No sure thing, obviously, but a good possibility nonetheless.

You say that there were only one or two stabs lower down on the body and 37 on the upper body, but that's not correct. In some of the newspaper clippings Dr. Killeen specified 9 to the throat, 7 to the lungs and 1 to the heart. That's 17 to the upper body. Then there were 5 to the liver, 6 to the stomach and 2 to the spleen, which is the mid-section of the torso rather than the upper body. But even if you see it as part of the upper body, there were still 8 stabs and the one cut to the lower part of the body.

The thrown up dress in combination with at least that cut and the timing of her murder might mean more than you think. Had there been a Chapman-like or Nichols-like murder before Tabram, then I would have a lot more doubts, but if I had to choose, I'd think it likelier that Tabram was a Ripper victim than Stride.

totally agree with this.
its not the number or cuts or stabs that matter, it that its over kill like the ripper that matters. its that there are stabs to the midsection at all. it that there is a cut to the privates. its that her skirt is hiked up. its that there is evidence of strangulation like the others. these similarities way outweigh the little differences. add to that same victimology, same area, same timeframe...

plus you have an earlier victim, millwood, whos attacked by a man that stabbed her in the lower parts of the body, probably one of the rippers first attacks and the progression from millwood to tabram and the rest makes perfect sense. a serial killer progressing, learning and escalating.

[FrankO]

Hello Frank

There were severe and multiple stabs in both Napper cases, though. I don't see a single genuine stab-wound in any of the C5, yet Tabram was unambiguously - and, apparently, frenziedly - stabbed almost 40 times.

Hi Gareth,

I think you're focussing a bit too much on the half empty part of the glass. The one victim was only stabbed and the other, besides the multiple stabs, was mutilated in Ripper-style with, amongst other things, her chest and abdomen cut open, flesh cut from her abdomen, severe cuts to the legs and a piece of belly wall taken away.

Now, I do agree with you that the attack on Tabram was frenzied, and would add that, if she was killed by the Ripper, then he certainly didn't go out with murder on his mind that night. At least, that's what I think. If she was killed by the Ripper, the attack on her happened on the spur of the moment, in my view, and ended with him making the three inch cut on her lower abdomen, causing a pool of blood being visible between her opened legs. No sure thing, obviously, but a good possibility nonetheless.

You say that there were only one or two stabs lower down on the body and 37 on the upper body, but that's not correct. In some of the newspaper clippings Dr. Killeen specified 9 to the throat, 7 to the lungs and 1 to the heart. That's 17 to the upper body. Then there were 5 to the liver, 6 to the stomach and 2 to the spleen, which is the mid-section of the torso rather than the upper body. But even if you see it as part of the upper body, there were still 8 stabs and the one cut to the lower part of the body.

The thrown up dress in combination with at least that cut and the timing of her murder might mean more than you think. Had there been a Chapman-like or Nichols-like murder before Tabram, then I would have a lot more doubts, but if I had to choose, I'd think it likelier that Tabram was a Ripper victim than Stride.

[scottnapa]

Scott,

Much of this is covered if you, like me, see the Ripper as an "exploratory" killer who was practicing and testing his way through his kills, to see what he could accomplish and get away with (as far as a bladed exploration of the female body goes). Hence why, given so much privacy and time with Mary Kelly, he "disassembled" her so thoroughly. That being said, it all relies on a subjective interpretation of the evidence so I can understand taking something different away.

Additionally, while I agree with you on the point of piquerism, do you not think that posing matters in the JTR killings specifically? I feel like all of his victims, bar Elizabeth Stride (accepting that he was interrusationpted in the act/that she was, indeed, a JTR victim) were very deliberately posed, which is why it becomes relevant in Tabram's case; vs. the relevance of posing to any other killer.

BTW--thank you for starting this thread--regardless of agreement, I'm very much enjoying the discussion!

Posing is not insignificant, and it certainly plays a role in JtR, however, I don't see how posing would be the deciding factor. How would we say Mary Kelly was posed? Very differently.
Would you say the JtR "leap" from Tabrum to Nichols is greater or less than the "leap" from Eddowes to Kelly? Just when we think we've got the Ripper... he escapes.

BTW -- you are very welcome. I had been posting on the JFK thread. which is rather contentious.
I assumed a Tabrum discussion would be a less so...

[bonestrewn]

Scott,

Much of this is covered if you, like me, see the Ripper as an "exploratory" killer who was practicing and testing his way through his kills, to see what he could accomplish and get away with (as far as a bladed exploration of the female body goes). Hence why, given so much privacy and time with Mary Kelly, he "disassembled" her so thoroughly. That being said, it all relies on a subjective interpretation of the evidence so I can understand taking something different away.

Additionally, while I agree with you on the point of piquerism, do you not think that posing matters in the JTR killings specifically? I feel like all of his victims, bar Elizabeth Stride (accepting that he was interrupted in the act/that she was, indeed, a JTR victim) were very deliberately posed, which is why it becomes relevant in Tabram's case; vs. the relevance of posing to any other killer.

BTW--thank you for starting this thread--regardless of agreement, I'm very much enjoying the discussion!

[scottnapa]

My source for the image of the Tabrum wounds on the casebook site https://www.casebook.org/dissertatio...timwounds.html

The academic paper I was reading, focused on killers who inflicted 30 or more wounds on their victim and found five areas of commonality:

Knife was the weapon mostly used in overkill cases.
The chest was the anatomical site mostly wounded in overkill cases.
All of the killers were men and have a strong relationship with the victim.
All of the perpetrators had a low Intelligence Quotient (I.Q.).
Only one of the killers was judged not guilty by reason of insanity (NGRI).

My initial take on Tabrum focused on a timing issue.
The overkill seen in the Tabrum murder on 7th August 1888 is described by that academic paper:
“The cruelty of such offenses appears to be explainable only against the background of an absolute will to annihilate,”
Yet, only 24 days after annihilating Martha Tabrum, the Ripper becomes the gruesome killer who harvests organs
On 31st August 1888, the Ripper remembers he has slaughterhouse skills and he murders Nichols with with speed and efficiency, showing a sense of purpose absent in the Tabrum murder.

The Ripper’s situational awareness makes him skilled at escape.
Would a mad killer focused on experiencing the 39 stabs delivered with rage and frenzy, have diminished situational awareness? I believe so.
However, a strong relationship between victim and perpetrator would change the interpretation. If the Ripper knows Tabrum well enough to kill her with that level of rage, then the Tabrum killing could make sense as a Ripper Murder.. With the assumption that suddenly the Ripper realizes he likes killing and changes his M.O.

I originally assumed this idea of the Ripper knowing Martha Tabrum would the topic discussed in response to my post.
Alas, pigeons on the grass.

In The Jack the Ripper Murders: A Modus Operandi and Signature Analysis of the 1888–1891 Whitechapel Murders, Robert D. Kepple, et al. places 6 victims in the Ripper grouping. I disagree for two reasons, I suggest Kepple overvalues piquerism and posing.
Piquerism on the simplest level is fetish driven, referring to piercing the skin. A nipple ring is not in the same conversation as Sharon Tate stabbed in the belly. Posing, while potentially significant at times, may not be consistent in a series of murders, The Hillside stranglers posed only one victim, Kimberly Martin their 9th victim, with her naked legs spread in the direction of City Hall.

[Sam Flynn]

This seems to me like an awful lot of similarity. There are differences too, but I question whether any of the differences are ones that can't be explained by the fact that it was an early murder, and he was still developing his way of doing things.

37 wounds - all stabs - to her upper body, and only one or two lower down, with the actual private parts remaining unscathed, and no significant cuts whatsoever. Is that more indicative of an early murder, or of a frenzied, one-off incident perpetrated by someone other than JTR?

[Sam Flynn]

The victim having her dress/skirt lifted up means nothing in terms of it being a Ripper murder, given that (a) Tabram was a prostitute; and (b) even though her skirt WAS lifted up, her killer inflicted next to zero injuries - i.e. stabs - to her lower body.

There are umpteen cases of prostitute murders where the victim was found with her skirts hitched up or her pants pulled down.

[Lewis C]

bingo bone
the fact that her skirt was hiked up to expose the object of tje rippers fantasy, like the others, was the final straw for me that tabram was a ripper victim.

Hi Abby,

While I'm less certain than you are, I think that more likely than not Tabram was a Ripper victim. The reason you gave is one reason, and there are others. Considering the murder location and those of the C5, Tabram's was the most centrally located of those six murder locations. It occurred three weeks before Nichols, close enough that there's no chronological reason to exclude it from the sequence. The type of victim and the time of day are similar to those of other Ripper victims. She was killed with a knife with far more damage done to her body than was necessary to kill her.

This seems to me like an awful lot of similarity. There are differences too, but I question whether any of the differences are ones that can't be explained by the fact that it was an early murder, and he was still developing his way of doing things.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Gareth,

I'm not reacting to your post to try and convince you of another view - we've been there already - but just to show you and/or others that an example of a killer exists who attacked one victim in very similar fashion to the way Tabram was attacked and another very similar to how Kelly was 'treated'. In July of 1992 Robert Napper stabbed Rachel Nichell 49 times in the neck and torso in a park (after having raped her) and in November of 1993 he killed and mutilated Samantha Bisset in her appartment, taking away part of her womb. Of course, there are differences, as he also stabbed Samantha 70 times.

The best,
Frank

Hello Frank

There were severe and multiple stabs in both Napper cases, though. I don't see a single genuine stab-wound in any of the C5, yet Tabram was unambiguously - and, apparently, frenziedly - stabbed almost 40 times.