Was Tabram stabbed through her clothing?

[Wickerman]

That's right, even thought several organs were removed and found in the room, only the heart was described as absent - and not found in the room.
It's one of those inconvenient facts that Trevor doesn't like.

[Fleetwood Mac]

It could be an idea to stay on topic: Martha Tabram, rather than repeat the same exchanges that have taken place on other threads.

[Admin]

It could be an idea to stay on topic: Martha Tabram, rather than repeat the same exchanges that have taken place on other threads.

It is an excellent idea. Follow it.

[Trevor Marriott]

That's right, even thought several organs were removed and found in the room, only the heart was described as absent - and not found in the room.
It's one of those inconvenient facts that Trevor doesn't like.

Its not inconvenient the fact is that there is no evidence thereafter to show the heart was missing from the room in fact there is corroborative evidence to what Insp reid stated that the heart was not taken away !!!!!!!!!!

Further corroboration would later come to prove that the heart was not taken away comes in the form of two newspaper articles, the first published in Lloyds Weekly dated November 11th 1888 which the interviewee would appear to have been Superintendent Arnold who was in overall charge of Whitechapel policing, and visited the crime scene shortly after the discovery of the body. The relevant part of the article reads “The kidneys and heart had also been removed from the body, and placed on the table by the side of the breasts

The second piece of corroboration comes from The New York Herald dated November 10th and is a quote from Dr Gabe who also attended the crime scene while the body was still in situ: “The nose and ears were sliced away. The throat was cut from left to right, so that the vertebrae alone prevented a heads manlike severance. Below the neck the trunk suggested a sheep's carcass in a slaughter house. Ribs and backbone were exposed and the stomach, entrails, heart and liver had been cut out and carefully placed beside the mutilated trunk”

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[A P Tomlinson]

It's been a while since we talked over the mutilations of Tabram, I don't think she was a Ripper victim, but thats just me.
Stabbed through her clothes?
Do you mean like in the upper chest?
I can't remember the source at the moment but, she was stabbed in the chest, through her clothes. Around the heart were several smaller stab wounds almost circular in pattern, but in the middle stabbed once with a stout long bladed knife, possibly a dagger which was similar to a bayonet of the time.
There were other stab wounds in and around the neck.

Some years ago, my Mrs suggested the possibility of a broken blade turning a sharp stabbing knife into a more chisel like tool, and when it broke he was left with one last heavy duty... more like a bludgeon than a stab into the sternum, if that makes sense. She said that a narrow blade hitting the sternum at a 90 degree angle could break the tip off the blade creating that flat edge thatt would dispesre the energy and smash the sternum rather than piercing it... again... if that makes sense?

(When I talk about whether it makes sense, I'm more concerened about my relating what she said in a way that makes sense.)

What she did mention was that that number of stabs maybe suggests a weapon with some form of protective crossguard or quillons to stop the hand sliding down the knife and getting quite badly cut.

I don't think any of the victims around that time can be truly discounted. Methodolgy and ritual evolve and mix with opportunity and a need to escape.
And there is always the possibility that one of the gang who committed the brutal atttack on Smith, realised when she later died how easy it was to get away with murdering women if you pick the right victim, even if they saw your face and survived a few days first... and that he evolved from something as ordinary as that.

[Losmandris]

I am with Lewis C in regard to the soldiers. In that I think Pearly Polls testimony is far to sketchy to be relied upon. Just look at the effort she went to, to avoid being questioned. Then the ID parade was just farcical.

The question for the thread is an interesting one and one I am not at all sure about? Were some of the wounds i.e. in the chest area through the clothes then others i.e. the lower half of the body directly on the skin where the clothes had been pulled up?

In any case I think she is a victim of the same murderer. I think references to the Yorkshire ripper are pertinent here in that the killer is likely to have changed his MO.

[Abby Normal]

Some years ago, my Mrs suggested the possibility of a broken blade turning a sharp stabbing knife into a more chisel like tool, and when it broke he was left with one last heavy duty... more like a bludgeon than a stab into the sternum, if that makes sense. She said that a narrow blade hitting the sternum at a 90 degree angle could break the tip off the blade creating that flat edge thatt would dispesre the energy and smash the sternum rather than piercing it... again... if that makes sense?

(When I talk about whether it makes sense, I'm more concerened about my relating what she said in a way that makes sense.)

What she did mention was that that number of stabs maybe suggests a weapon with some form of protective crossguard or quillons to stop the hand sliding down the knife and getting quite badly cut.

I don't think any of the victims around that time can be truly discounted. Methodolgy and ritual evolve and mix with opportunity and a need to escape.
And there is always the possibility that one of the gang who committed the brutal atttack on Smith, realised when she later died how easy it was to get away with murdering women if you pick the right victim, even if they saw your face and survived a few days first... and that he evolved from something as ordinary as that.

re your last paragraph..excellent point. I think millwood, tabram the c5 and McKenzie are close enough in the similarities that they are all done by the same man. So it’s a c8 for me just for starters. I think smith, Ada Wilson , and mylett are possibilities also.

just one more point that was being discussed regarding the soldiers. It’s not either a soldier or the ripper who killed tabram. They are not mutually exclusive. The ripper could have been one of the soldiers or at least an ex soldier.

[A P Tomlinson]

re your last paragraph..excellent point. I think millwood, tabram the c5 and McKenzie are close enough in the similarities that they are all done by the same man. So it’s a c8 for me just for starters. I think smith, Ada Wilson , and mylett are possibilities also.

just one more point that was being discussed regarding the soldiers. It’s not either a soldier or the ripper who killed tabram. They are not mutually exclusive. The ripper could have been one of the soldiers or at least an ex soldier.

I entertained a thought some years ago that a soldier, (not one of Pol's), could have been JtR.
Someone who has served overseas, been through some serious mental trauma in combat, trained killer, silently cuts throats without the victim having a chance to scream... covert, brutal, bold.
The regiment discovers his acts, packs him off to somewhere dangerous like India, Afghanistan, China... and makes sure he is "killed in action" before any of his deeds can bring shame on the Queen's Colours...
Don't have a name, or any sense of the whys and wherefores... just a notion.

[Abby Normal]

I entertained a thought some years ago that a soldier, (not one of Pol's), could have been JtR.
Someone who has served overseas, been through some serious mental trauma in combat, trained killer, silently cuts throats without the victim having a chance to scream... covert, brutal, bold.
The regiment discovers his acts, packs him off to somewhere dangerous like India, Afghanistan, China... and makes sure he is "killed in action" before any of his deeds can bring shame on the Queen's Colours...
Don't have a name, or any sense of the whys and wherefores... just a notion.

A lot of serial killers come from a military background. Just off the top of my head I would guess about 50 %. Wouldn’t be surprised if it were more.

I wonder if there has been studies what the stats would be on that?

[A P Tomlinson]

A lot of serial killers come from a military background. Just off the top of my head I would guess about 50 %. Wouldn’t be surprised if it were more.

I wonder if there has been studies what the stats would be on that?

If I were a more capable researcher, I would look at the lists of Companies and Regiments garrisoned around London across the period. Checking for when they had returned from deployment, and when they were redeployed. See if there is any overlap.
I woudn't even begin to know where to start looking for ex-servicemen. Pensions is one thing I suppose, but I have a feeling we'd need to look at AWOLs and dishonourable discharges as much as pensioners.

[Losmandris]

A lot of serial killers come from a military background. Just off the top of my head I would guess about 50 %. Wouldn’t be surprised if it were more.

I wonder if there has been studies what the stats would be on that?

Really? That number seems pretty high to me? Off the bat I can think of two Jeffery Dahmer and Dennis Nielson. Though neither I believe saw combat the former was a bit of a dropout and the latter a cook. Any more?

[A P Tomlinson]

Really? That number seems pretty high to me? Off the bat I can think of two Jeffery Dahmer and Dennis Nielson. Though neither I believe saw combat the former was a bit of a dropout and the latter a cook. Any more?

Heres a few.
Rader aka "BTK" (10 Victims) served but saw no action, Christie "Rillington Place Strangler" (8 victims) was invalided home after a gas attack in France in WW1, Berkowitz "Son of Sam" (6 Victims) served in Korea, Ridgeway "Green River Killer" (70+ victims) served in Vietnam.

[Abby Normal]

Really? That number seems pretty high to me? Off the bat I can think of two Jeffery Dahmer and Dennis Nielson. Though neither I believe saw combat the former was a bit of a dropout and the latter a cook. Any more?

if you google it you will see how many...its alot. when i have more time ill try to do more extensive searching and provide a list. and its not just seeing combat, because they have training with weapons whether they see action or not. plus there might be other pertinant aspects, like the psychology of it, economic background etc. of someone who joins the military.

also, the zodiac, though unsolved, it is almost certain he had a military background.

if anyone else would like to take on this question and research i think it would be a fascinating area of study. this probably deserves its own thread.

[Losmandris]

Very interesting. Does make you think? And big relationship between soldiers and prostitutes, especially I believe at the time in relation to the spread of VD. If I am correct there is a very interesting Rippercast on this subject, though specifics and the name of the speaker currently allude me.

[A P Tomlinson]

Very interesting. Does make you think? And big relationship between soldiers and prostitutes, especially I believe at the time in relation to the spread of VD. If I am correct there is a very interesting Rippercast on this subject, though specifics and the name of the speaker currently allude me.

Given the subject matter, I dont suppose it's a particularly easy one to search the titles to find either...