Was Tabram stabbed through her clothing?

[Trevor Marriott]

Reid's statement says that no organs were taken from any of the bodies. Reid contradicts your theory that organs were taken from some of the victims, but not by the killer. Reid also contradicts the testimony of the doctors in the Chapman and Eddowes cases.

In other parts of Reid's newspaper interview, he also said "The Ripper was a man with no skilled knowledge - not even the skill of a novice in butchery." This also contradicts your theory.

What happened to Kelly's heart was not and is not plainly clear. It is clear that Kelly's heart was removed from her body. Some period accounts say the heart was also removed from the room. Some are ambiguous. Some say the heart was still present in the room.

Most police involved did not discuss whether Kelly's heart had been removed from the room. Their silence does not support your theory. Reid did claim Kelly's heart was not "taken away". He also claimed that no organs were "taken away" from any of the victims, which contradicts both the doctors evidence and your theory.

I think it's fair to conclude that Reid's claim that Kelly's heart wasn't taken away is an unsafe statement.

Well I have read Reids interview many times and in the part relative to Kelly he only gets one minor thing wrong, so I will stick with it as being correct notwithstanding the other corroborative evidence which I notice you have not challenged.

In other press interviews, Reid also believed that the killer did not remove the organs from the other victims an issue I have been suggesting for several years now and he also believed that the motive for the murders was simply murder and mutilation which I have again been suggesting.

It seems great minds think alike !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Abby Normal]

I would tend to agree with you too. I think there were signs of strangulation, just that Killeen did not make much of them. I am sure in the past people have used the mortuary photo as an indicator of this fact. Maybe one of the days richardh can work his magic on the picture and we can see a bit more clearly for ourselves?

There are just too many similarities with later victims for me to discount her.

Agree. I think she was probably a ripper victim. Account for escalation and bumbling early attempts and she fits in neatly with the series imho.

[Losmandris]

Hi AP
there we’re signs of strangulation and blunt force trauma on tabram. Imho he was facing her, and punched her and or knocked her to the ground and strangled her perhaps pounding her head on the ground until she was unconscious and then started stabbing her.

Per you last post I think he probably started to stab her through the clothes and per his budding fantasy hiked up her skirt to expose her abdomen and privates. So I think some stabs were probably not through the clothes. Remember she was found with her skirt hiked up like the other victims .

I would tend to agree with you too. I think there were signs of strangulation, just that Killeen did not make much of them. I am sure in the past people have used the mortuary photo as an indicator of this fact. Maybe one of the days richardh can work his magic on the picture and we can see a bit more clearly for ourselves?

There are just too many similarities with later victims for me to discount her.

[Losmandris]

Not for me.
I think there's every possibility there was an escalation and evolution in his behaviour and method.

I would tend to agree.

[Abby Normal]

And back to the OP; I think that she was stabbed through the clothes.

There was no sign of suffocation, there was no throat cut, and while the ME may be out in his considration that all the wounds were performed while she was still alive, we have to accept that death would not have been instantaneous, and I simply dont see a plausible scenario where he gets her to remove her clothes and lay down, to be stabbed, and remain quiet at the same time.

I think he was behind her, and as she was preparing to do business he grabbed her around the mouth with one hand to stop her screaming, pulled her to him and stabbed upward and toward himself and as she lost consciousness he lowered her down and finished her off with the heavy blow to the sternum.

Hi AP
there we’re signs of strangulation and blunt force trauma on tabram. Imho he was facing her, and punched her and or knocked her to the ground and strangled her perhaps pounding her head on the ground until she was unconscious and then started stabbing her.

Per you last post I think he probably started to stab her through the clothes and per his budding fantasy hiked up her skirt to expose her abdomen and privates. So I think some stabs were probably not through the clothes. Remember she was found with her skirt hiked up like the other victims .

[Fiver]

The News of the World 1896 interview with Insp Reid

[SIZE=16px][FONT=Times New Roman]I ought to tell you that the stories of portions of the body having been taken away by the murderer were all untrue. In every instance the body was complete. The mania of the murderer was exclusively for horrible mutilation. The landlord was brought round to the house by his man, and the sight of the poor mutilated woman turned his brain.

[FONT=Calibri]No other officer that I am aware of discussed the heart being taken by the killer because it was plainly clear to one and all at the time that the killer did not take away the heart so there was no need to discuss the topic !!!!!!!!!

Reid's statement says that no organs were taken from any of the bodies. Reid contradicts your theory that organs were taken from some of the victims, but not by the killer. Reid also contradicts the testimony of the doctors in the Chapman and Eddowes cases.

In other parts of Reid's newspaper interview, he also said "The Ripper was a man with no skilled knowledge - not even the skill of a novice in butchery." This also contradicts your theory.

What happened to Kelly's heart was not and is not plainly clear. It is clear that Kelly's heart was removed from her body. Some period accounts say the heart was also removed from the room. Some are ambiguous. Some say the heart was still present in the room.

Most police involved did not discuss whether Kelly's heart had been removed from the room. Their silence does not support your theory. Reid did claim Kelly's heart was not "taken away". He also claimed that no organs were "taken away" from any of the victims, which contradicts both the doctors evidence and your theory.

I think it's fair to conclude that Reid's claim that Kelly's heart wasn't taken away is an unsafe statement.

[A P Tomlinson]

Would stabbing through the clothes be a 'game changer' in thinking that it was not the same killer as later victims?

Not for me.
I think there's every possibility there was an escalation and evolution in his behaviour and method.

[Losmandris]

Would stabbing through the clothes be a 'game changer' in thinking that it was not the same killer as later victims?

[A P Tomlinson]

And back to the OP; I think that she was stabbed through the clothes.

There was no sign of suffocation, there was no throat cut, and while the ME may be out in his considration that all the wounds were performed while she was still alive, we have to accept that death would not have been instantaneous, and I simply dont see a plausible scenario where he gets her to remove her clothes and lay down, to be stabbed, and remain quiet at the same time.

I think he was behind her, and as she was preparing to do business he grabbed her around the mouth with one hand to stop her screaming, pulled her to him and stabbed upward and toward himself and as she lost consciousness he lowered her down and finished her off with the heavy blow to the sternum.

[A P Tomlinson]

Abby

Was wondering are the figures slightly tilted by dent of what we in the UK would call National Service. The main bulk of serial killers are in the USA and where especially active in the 70s and 80's. They would have been through WW2, Korea and Vietnam and been subject to being called up. Would be good to know who was called up and who volunteered. I always imagined the rigid discipline of the military wouldn't sit well with a serial killer.

I think its a "six and two threes" situation George.

Nilsen described his 3 years at Aldershot as something like the happiest time of his life.
I think for some the regimes and order and hierarchy structure would be contra to their need to be in control.
But with others, losing that rigidity and structure upon leaving the military can cause all manner of psychological issues. Pile that up on top of PTSD and a lack of support post service... and you've got a crucible for creating a serious violent offender.

These days in the US it seems to be more of the "Mass Shooter" variety, than the serial killer, but there has to be some potntial for a psychological break caused when your country hires you, trains you, and pays you to be an efficient killer, then lets you go with a "Thank you for your service... now go rejoin the real world when being an efficient killer is not a particularly useful skill set..."
I'm not saying all ex services are psycho killers. Far from it. They do a job I could never do, and I'm amazed that there aren't more of them becoming violent offenders when you consider the crap they have had to deal with, and the way most are just left to handle the aftermath on their own.

[Trevor Marriott]

When did Inspector Reid state that no organs were taken by Kelly's murderer? And when did any other police official discuss whether or not organs were taken by Kelly's killer?

The News of the World 1896 interview with Insp Reid

I ought to tell you that the stories of portions of the body having been taken away by the murderer were all untrue. In every instance the body was complete. The mania of the murderer was exclusively for horrible mutilation. The landlord was brought round to the house by his man, and the sight of the poor mutilated woman turned his brain.

No other officer that I am aware of discussed the heart being taken by the killer because it was plainly clear to one and all at the time that the killer did not take away the heart so there was no need to discuss the topic !!!!!!!!!

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Fiver]

But not forgetting that Insp Reid later stated that no organs were taken from Kelly by the killer and no other police official stated that organs were taken.

When did Inspector Reid state that no organs were taken by Kelly's murderer? And when did any other police official discuss whether or not organs were taken by Kelly's killer?

[Fiver]

I was surprised to see that a poll conducted on another thread made Tabram the favourite non-canonical candidate for victim of the Whitechapel Murderer.

I have always thought that the lack of excision and the excessive stabbing make her an unlikely victim of his.

Excessive is one of the Ripper's trademarks. So is posing the body flat on their back with skirts raised. That doesn't mean Tabram was a Ripper victim, but I don't think that we can rule her out, either.

[Abby Normal]

Abby

Was wondering are the figures slightly tilted by dent of what we in the UK would call National Service. The main bulk of serial killers are in the USA and where especially active in the 70s and 80's. They would have been through WW2, Korea and Vietnam and been subject to being called up. Would be good to know who was called up and who volunteered. I always imagined the rigid discipline of the military wouldn't sit well with a serial killer.

hi george
what im interested in is in general, wherever they are from, how many serial killers were former (and or current of course) military..army navy etc, whether they joined or were drafted. like i said i think that the numbers and percentage is pretty high.

and yes i agree with your last sentence, which is why most are former military, although im sure there were some who were still active.

[Fleetwood Mac]

'Looking around the internet, all sorts of scholarly articles and knife type societies agree with Dr Killeen when he stated: such an instrument could not have inflicted one of the wounds, which went through the chest-bone.

I've looked at boatloads of articles and the only types of knives I can find capable of that are: swords, daggers and butchers' knives, and even then they would have to be wielded with considerable force.

Apparently, human bone is pound for pound as strong as steel, and the sternum is stronger and some other human bones.