Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram

[Darryl Kenyon]

What stood out to me is that Napper still engaged in stabbing the internal organs of his victim. We don't see this paraphilia in any of the canonical five murders, but we're asked to accept this is the same killer who stabbed Tabram 39 times? Ripper by name, Ripper by nature.

What if the ripper after his first kill Martha decided he wanted to keep some kind of trophy from his second kill Harry to relive the experience like Napper. How would he go about it ?
Regards Darryl

[Harry D]

What if the ripper after his first kill Martha decided he wanted to keep some kind of trophy from his second kill Harry to relive the experience like Napper. How would he go about it ?
Regards Darryl

Not a working theory imo. Napper removed organs as trophies AND stabbed the internal organs. JTR never stabbed any internal organs during the murders. And he would've had a field day after emptying Mary Kelly.

Also, for what it's worth, I'm not convinced Nichols' killer planned to remove the organs. If that was his focus, he could've got on with it and got away. Unless he was trying to psych himself up to it and when he heard footsteps (Lechmere?) he bolted?

[Varqm]

Can we call it a 50-50 that Tabram was a JTR victim or not, solely on the change of MO, stabbing to throat-cutting,because killer's MO could change.

[Losmandris]

Can we call it a 50-50 that Tabram was a JTR victim or not, solely on the change of MO, stabbing to throat-cutting,because killer's MO could change.

To me those are pretty good odds.

[Varqm]

To me those are pretty good odds.

Yeah that's why I went for other possible determining facts,I choose the dates of the murders, first week or last day of the month, and locations\direction\route to include Tabram.

[Sunny Delight]

Hi Tristan,



It's certainly possible. Serial killers are not quite as robotic as sometimes assumed, and they can vary in their actions at crime scenes quite a bit. And given Martha, if part of the series, would be prior to the more typical abdominal slashing murders, a frenzied stabbing attack could be an early approach. David Berkowitz's (Son of Sam) first attacks were with a knife, but they proved non-fatal and ineffective. After that he switched to using a large calibre hand gun (a 44).

The lack of her raising any sound, or cries of pain, etc, would be explained if he did strangle her to at least the point of unconsciousness.

We do have "Pearly Poll's" testimony that they were with two soldiers that night, and there is a police constable who testifies he saw one soldier waiting for his friend who had "gone off with a girl" though. And while neither of them were great witnesses, both picking out the wrong men during some line ups, all that tells us is that they didn't have a strong memory for what the soldiers looked like.

I believe it was one of the soldiers Pearly Poll identified who was cleared because he was with his wife that weekend (she verified his alibi). One could view that as potentially providing a false alibi, but as PP didn't insist she had the right fellow, I don't think even that line of speculation would provide for a strong argument that one of the men had been found.

In the end, Tabram needs to be considered as potentially the first victim (who died, there may have been some prior non-fatal attacks, like Millwood, though her consideration is, in my view, tied to accepting Tabram). I believe it was the view of many of the police at the time that Tabram was part of the series. It was McNaughton who later rejected that idea when he penned his memorandum, creating the C5.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Have you ever encountered or read about the UK Serial killer Robert Napper. Napper was a very dangerous and violent man although described by work colleagues as neat and tidy, punctual, reliable if a little odd. He is known to have murdered two women in London in the early 1990's. His progression has very similar aspects to Jack the Ripper. He murdered a woman in a public park, Rachel Nickel, stabbing her in a frenzied attack 49 times.

He also killed Samantha Bisset. She was attacked after she opened her front door- similarities with the Ada Wilson attack maybe- and Napper then mutilated her body, posing her like the Ripper had done and then taking away body parts as 'trophies'. He also suffocated her little 4 year old daughter. An awful scene for her partner to have encountered the poor man.

I later transpired Napper was the Green chain Rapist. A man responsible for the rape of around 80 women in London in the late 1980's. To my mind the Ripper was someone just like him. It is also interesting that Napper was discounted from Police enquiries based on eyewitness descriptions that had stated the Green chain Rapist to be 5ft 8 inches or so by those who had seem him. Napper was over 6ft.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

Have you ever encountered or read about the UK Serial killer Robert Napper. Napper was a very dangerous and violent man although described by work colleagues as neat and tidy, punctual, reliable if a little odd. He is known to have murdered two women in London in the early 1990's. His progression has very similar aspects to Jack the Ripper. He murdered a woman in a public park, Rachel Nickel, stabbing her in a frenzied attack 49 times.

He also killed Samantha Bisset. She was attacked after she opened her front door- similarities with the Ada Wilson attack maybe- and Napper then mutilated her body, posing her like the Ripper had done and then taking away body parts as 'trophies'. He also suffocated her little 4 year old daughter. An awful scene for her partner to have encountered the poor man.

I later transpired Napper was the Green chain Rapist. A man responsible for the rape of around 80 women in London in the late 1980's. To my mind the Ripper was someone just like him. It is also interesting that Napper was discounted from Police enquiries based on eyewitness descriptions that had stated the Green chain Rapist to be 5ft 8 inches or so by those who had seem him. Napper was over 6ft.

Hi Sunny,

I've heard of Napper, and have seen a few of the typical "true crime" short docs on him, but to be honest, I can't recall many details. But yes, the variety of attacks, and other crimes, that Napper shows is not that uncommon. Some serial killers are very varied in their crimes, others have a more obvious repeat pattern to their crimes. It's common to see JtR as the latter, but that's only because in the mutilation murders it is clear he's more or less "repeating and improving" the previous crime. However, that doesn't mean he didn't do other crimes and/or murders that deviate from that pattern. Perhaps the Millwood and Tabram cases are examples (particularly as they are prior to Nichols).

As for the eye-witness description errors, that doesn't surprise me at all. People are having to try to recall the details of a person whom, at the time they saw them, they had no special reason to take notice. All of the witnesses in the JtR cases, who describe men seen the company with one of the victims, is of that sort. The saw them, may even have commented (as with Lawende and co), but really they had no reason to "take note" of them. Their descriptions will in all likelihood be off the mark, but we just can't know how. In the end, the descriptions we have are pretty generic really, and could describe about 90% of the adult male population of the area. I suppose what that tells us is what most probably think, JtR was a pretty non-descript, typically looking fellow. Come to think of it, I think I tend to see that as a strike against Tumblety actually, as he was known to be a fairly visually flamboyant individual.

- Jeff

[Fiver]

Signature can change over time. The posing of the body and level of damage inflicted on the corpse make me think Tabram was probably a Ripper victim.

[Lewis C]

Signature can change over time. The posing of the body and level of damage inflicted on the corpse make me think Tabram was probably a Ripper victim.

Hi Fiver,

I think so too. Also the type of victim and the time of the murder. And if you plot the location of her murder and those of the C5 on a map, hers is the most centrally located of the 6 murders.

[Fiver]

Hi Fiver,

I think so too. Also the type of victim and the time of the murder. And if you plot the location of her murder and those of the C5 on a map, hers is the most centrally located of the 6 murders.

Agreed.

There's also a modern Signature Analysis of the crimes that conclude Tabram was a Ripper killing.

[Filby]

I was just reading a really interesting old thread on Martha Tabram. It raised some key points questioning the cause of death. Most interestingly that her face appeared to indicate that she was strangled. I am wondering if the murderer strangled her to render her unconscious, then stabbed her in the neck to kill her. He then plans to carry out some kind of post mortem mutilations. However the stabs to the neck have not been effective and Martha is still alive (and possibly kicking). He then, in a panic stabs her multiply times and thus no mutilations. Following from this for his next victims he changes his MO to slashing rather than stabbing the neck.

Any thoughts?


Tristan

I agree. He adjusted his MO to each situation. What we do know is that Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly were both able to cry out for a brief moment, so not all JtR murders were slashes from behind that left the victims fully immobilized.

[Abby Normal]

Agreed.

There's also a modern Signature Analysis of the crimes that conclude Tabram was a Ripper killing.

agree. she fits with typical serial killer escalation. an early clumsy kill as he works out whats the most efficiant mo and satisfying sig.
millwood- botched non fatal knife attack
tabram- fatal knife attack
nichols- mature mo, full sig not acheived
chapman-mature mo and sig

[Lewis C]

I agree. He adjusted his MO to each situation. What we do know is that Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly were both able to cry out for a brief moment, so not all JtR murders were slashes from behind that left the victims fully immobilized.

Hi FIlby,

I agree that he made adjustments to his MO, but I don't think we know that Chapman cried out. Cadosch said the he heard a voice say know, but I don't think he specified that it was a woman's voice, and it might not have been said in response to being attacked.

[Filby]

Hi FIlby,

I agree that he made adjustments to his MO, but I don't think we know that Chapman cried out. Cadosch said the he heard a voice say know, but I don't think he specified that it was a woman's voice, and it might not have been said in response to being attacked.

Agree, we just don't know for certain. If only Cadosch would have looked over that fence.

[Lewis C]

Agree, we just don't know for certain. If only Cadosch would have looked over that fence.

I just noticed that I typed "know" when I meant "no" - I'm surprised that I would do that - but from your response, I think you understood.