Did JtR change his MO after murdering Martha Tabram

[Kattrup]

But of all the witnesses involved in the case, Pearly Poll comes across as particularly unreliable, at least in my eyes. And she is the main source for the soldier angle. I think because of that, we get this idea that a bayonet was involved. I am not sure that it can be conclusively stated that it was.

I don't think it was Pearly Poll alone. I think Dr. Killeen's statement that one of the wounds would have been caused by possibly a sword bayonet or dagger and the police saying that several persons had seen Tabram in the company of a soldier or soldiers on the night of her death, make it clear that a soldier could have been involved - regardless of Pearly Poll's veracity.

[Losmandris]

I don't think it was Pearly Poll alone. I think Dr. Killeen's statement that one of the wounds would have been caused by possibly a sword bayonet or dagger and the police saying that several persons had seen Tabram in the company of a soldier or soldiers on the night of her death, make it clear that a soldier could have been involved - regardless of Pearly Poll's veracity.

Sounds like a bit of chicken and egg situation to me.

[Aethelwulf]

I don't think it was Pearly Poll alone. I think Dr. Killeen's statement that one of the wounds would have been caused by possibly a sword bayonet or dagger and the police saying that several persons had seen Tabram in the company of a soldier or soldiers on the night of her death, make it clear that a soldier could have been involved - regardless of Pearly Poll's veracity.

Is there a reference to these two actually wearing uniform? They may have just said they were soldiers to impress and therefore be a total red herring.

[FISHY1118]

How do we Account for Sir Melville Macnaghten when his official notes on the case state the following ?.

'' The Whitechapel Murderer had 5 victims and 5 victims only, Nicols,Chapman, Stride,Eddowes and Kelly.

Martha Tabram not being one of them .

[Kattrup]

Is there a reference to these two actually wearing uniform? They may have just said they were soldiers to impress and therefore be a total red herring.

The inference is that people could see they were soldiers, hence I think they were in uniform:

Detective-Inspector Reid made a statement of the efforts made by the police to discover the perpetrator of the murder. Several persons had stated that they saw the deceased woman on the previous Sunday with a corporal

It appears that on the night of Bank Holiday several soldiers were seen drinking in a public-house a couple of minutes' walk from George-yard-buildings, and it is said that Turner and another woman well-known in the district were seen in company of these men.

Already from the 8th of August:

About four o'clock yesterday morning a woman was found in George-yard, Whitechapel, stabbed to death. There were twenty-four wounds in various parts of her body.

It is rumoured that one of the soldiers quartered in the Tower has been arrested on suspicion of being concerned in the murder.

Another quote showing the police were considering soldiers:

the statement of Police-constable Barrett, 226 H, is important. The officer was on duty in the neighbourhood of George Yard about two o'clock on the morning of the tragedy, and noticed a soldier loitering. Barrett remarked that it was quite time he was in barracks, and the soldier replied that he was waiting for a comrade who had accompanied a woman to one of the buildings close at hand.

So I think there's ample evidence of the soldier-theory resting not solely on the testimony of Pearly Poll:

WAS THE MURDERER A SOLDIER?

The case in question is in certain respects one of a very puzzling character, owing to the fact that so many stab wounds were inflicted, and that no cries were heard, although the poor woman was on some stone steps, close to the doors of small rooms wherein several separate families resided. It now appears that on the night of Bank Holiday there were several soldiers in the neighbourhood, some of whom were seen drinking in the Princess Alice-two minutes' walk from George-yard-buildings-and other taverns near. With these soldiers were the deceased and another woman, the latter being known in the district, so it is said, as "Mogg" and "Pearly Poll." One of these men was a private, the other a corporal. It has been ascertained that only corporals and sergeants are allowed to wear side arms when on leave. This fact, of course, narrows the issue as to the possible identity of the assailant-presuming he was a soldier.

[Losmandris]

The inference is that people could see they were soldiers, hence I think they were in uniform:





Already from the 8th of August:


Another quote showing the police were considering soldiers:


So I think there's ample evidence of the soldier-theory resting not solely on the testimony of Pearly Poll:

Thanks for sharing this.

[Wickerman]

So I think there's ample evidence of the soldier-theory resting not solely on the testimony of Pearly Poll:

Correct, and the police interviewed soldiers at the Tower.
Two of them appeared to fit the descriptions but they were of the wrong rank.

My father was in the military, he told me how common it was for buddies of different ranks to switch jackets. Just in case there was any trouble on their nights out, any witnesses would be confused in an eventual line-up.
Which seems to be exactly what happened in this case.
The military were wise to this, they knew it went on, but it's a closed community. They look after each other.

[Wickerman]

Thanks for sharing this.

Excuse me for asking, but what Kattrup shared is pretty basic to the case.
You had to have known this?

[Losmandris]

Excuse me for asking, but what Kattrup shared is pretty basic to the case.
You had to have known this?

As mentioned I always thought that the initial source for the solider story came from Poll with everything subsequent relating to them spanning from there.

[Varqm]

Pearly Poll said she and Tabram were drinking with a couple of soldiers and one went with one.But that was 15 min or so to 12 am .How long to do their knee-jerking? We do not know what time Tabram was attacked and killed.Maybe she was killed at 1 or 2 or 3 am. Or past 3:30 am.Maybe she picked up another "customer".Crow noticed the body lying at 3:30 am.,maybe Tabram was drunk. lying down and was attacked after.
It was not necessarily a soldier.
I have not looked or know about MO change,too hard,individuals think differently.The only thing about Tabram is along Commercial road > street, from Berner st to Hanbury, Stride,Tabram McKenzie,Kelly and Chapman were killed around one block to the left or right.

[Aethelwulf]

The inference is that people could see they were soldiers, hence I think they were in uniform:





Already from the 8th of August:


Another quote showing the police were considering soldiers:


So I think there's ample evidence of the soldier-theory resting not solely on the testimony of Pearly Poll:

Thanks. Just looking at the timeline and there is a fair gap unaccounted for, which may well mean the soldiers had nothing to do with it.

Also, some of the early posts in this thread reference stabs to the neck, but they aren't listed on the Tabram page - where does that come from? If accurate, that seems similar to Wilson. I know people discount her because of the apparent robbery motive, but criminal versatility is one of the criteria for psychopaths. I guess because psychopaths have no scruples they may indulge in a range of criminal activity. I don't see why the ripper's later activities would rule him out of just wanting money and stabbing someone in the throat.

One last thought, perhaps if the ripper had attacked Millwood and Wilson unsuccessfully, that may account for the 'taking no chances' overkill with tabram.

[Darryl Kenyon]

How do we Account for Sir Melville Macnaghten when his official notes on the case state the following ?.

'' The Whitechapel Murderer had 5 victims and 5 victims only, Nicols,Chapman, Stride,Eddowes and Kelly.

Martha Tabram not being one of them .

Hi Fishy

It will be noted that the fury of the mutilations increased in each case, and, seemingly, the appetite only became sharpened by indulgence. It seems, then, highly improbable that the murderer would have suddenly stopped in November '88, and been content to recommence operations by merely prodding a girl behind some 2 years and 4 months afterwards. A much more rational theory is that the murderer's brain gave way altogether after his awful glut in Miller's Court, and that he immediately committed suicide.

If Macnaghten included Martha, his personal opinion that the murderers appetite and the fury of the mutilations increased with each murder until his brain gave way would not hold up. So in my opinion that may be one of the reasons he favoured the soldier theory.

Regards Darryl

[Mark J D]

... The only thing about Tabram is along Commercial road > street, from Berner st to Hanbury, Stride,Tabram McKenzie,Kelly and Chapman were killed around one block to the left or right.

If you walk Lechmere's likely southern route to work (weekdays) and back to his house (post-Eddowes), it is very strikingly apparent that Tabram's murder was as close to Wentworth Street (outbound) as were the Goulston Street apron and graffito (return)...

M.

[MrBarnett]

Francis Hewitt was spinning the story about soldiers on the afternoon of the 7th. He would have spent time with Killeen and PC Barrett on the landing before the body was removed.

I’m not sure that Killeen ever offered the opinion that a bayonet had been used. He spoke of ‘some kind of a dagger’.

[MrBarnett]

This appeared in the Sheffield Daily Telegraph of 8th August. Where would their reporter have got his information from? Just from Hewitt, by the look of it.