Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim

[curious]

Hi Velma

So on a Tabram thread you're effectively making suggestions about Millers Court...or have I misread it?

I won't read too much into it...Either Tabram is a very early phase indeed or she's totally unrelated...personally I think she's the former but have no evidence whatever for thinking so...

All the best

Dave

Hi, Dave,

No. I said nothing about Miller's Court.

I responded to a post by RavenDarkendale suggesting that perhaps JtR and the torso killer might have killed and tried to make it look as though the other had committed the crime. That doesn't make sense to me.

I don't think I made any reference at all to Miller's Court -- until this post.

Like you, I am unsure about Tabram, but lean toward her being an early JtR.

Velma

[RavenDarkendale]

Actually, Dave, I mentioned Miller's Court when curious mentioned that it was unlikely for JtR to have a place where he could take the time to copy the torso killer. That was a natural lead into the only crime alleged to be done by JtR indoors, Miller's Court.

The thread is about non canonical victims in general, and Martha Tabram in particular. The possibility of more than one killer involved in Whitechapel at the same time raises the point of copycat murders.

I really think that Tabram was either JtR's first victim, the catalyst for his reign of terror, or his first "found victim". There may have been victims that survived, or ones never discovered.

God Bless

Darkendale

[Phil H]

or ones never discovered

Dale

Do you mean that their bodies were never discovered? Or that they are simply unknown because they never came forward?

I find undiscovered bodies a little improbable - with the exception of MJK (assuming she was a Ripper victim) all the bodies were left in very public spaces.

[As an aside: how lomg could MJK's body have been left without being found, if harry had not looked through the window? Days maybe?

I've never considered this before, but could he have been "sent2 deliberately to ensure that the body was found? Whatr are the implications of that hypothesis?]

To conclude: I think the Torso Killer might well have had victims that were never found - the Scotland Yard torso was almost missed - but not Jack.

Phil H

[RavenDarkendale]

Hi Phil

Yes I meant bodies never discovered, left in some deserted place. I'm thinking of a murder that happened on a college campus here in the States. The body was left in an outdoor stairwell. Despite there being windows overlooking the site and a door that opened near the body at the bottom of the stairs, and an exhaustive search of the campus it was over a week until the body was found.

There was so much clutter in the East End at the time of JtR that a body in a constantly shadowed place or rubble filled place could go undiscovered unti; much later, if at all. The smell would have not been a clue as the whole area stank.

Likewise, some attacked women who survived might never have come forward.

I think I speculated on the question if Thomas Bowyer was deliberately sent to "discover" the body by John McCarthy somewhere in this thread: http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7020 Perhaps McCarthy was feed up with not being paid, or Mary cut off the favors she gave him in lieu of payment.

Back to Tabram, I don't see her as the first victim of JtR but perhaps the first kill. He may have stabbed or slashed others that survived.

God Bless

Darkendale

[Wickerman]

Personally, I have never felt that Tabram was a victim of JTR. MO is very different. Evidence seems to show two weapons being used. If two weapons are used, then I would guess two killers (most likely the two soldiers she was seen with earlier). Just my humble opinion.

I tend to agree, two soldiers, ...but two weapons does not necessarily indicate two killers.

Sutcliffe (Yorkshire Ripper) used two weapons, first he stunned the victim with hammer blows to the back of the head, then in a frenzy perhaps similar to what we see on Tabram, he stabbed her with a screwdriver multiple times.

(Body of Wilma McCann)
The impression of two hammer blows to the back of the head, plus:
"The wounds were divided into several areas: a stab wound to the throat; two stab wounds below the right breast; three stab wounds below the left breast and a series of nine stab wounds around the umbilicus."


(Body of Emily Jackson)
The impression of two hammer blows to the back of the head, plus:
On her back thirty stab wounds in an area measuring roughly six inches by eight. In her front, twelve stab wounds in the abdomen, and ten other stab wounds scattered around her torso, fifty two in all.
One particular stab wound through her sternum had "reproduced the cruciform shape in the bone".
(Like a Phillips screwdriver)

Reminiscent of the singular stab wound through Tabram's sternum which had also left a distinct impression of the weapon used.

Sutcliffe is said to have admitted being driven by a sexual urge, his claim as a schizophrenic being another lie to manipulate the system.

The question must arise, if Tabram was indeed murdered by a soldier, or two, is it likely, bearing in mind Sutcliffe as an example, that Tabram's murder could have been a one-off?
Why were there no more?

Regards, Jon S.

[woocus]

I tend to agree, two soldiers, ...but two weapons does not necessarily indicate two killers.


The question must arise, if Tabram was indeed murdered by a soldier, or two, is it likely, bearing in mind Sutcliffe as an example, that Tabram's murder could have been a one-off?
Why were there no more?

Regards, Jon S.

The soldier/s were with or around Martha at somewhere between 11.45pm and maybe 12.30 to 1am. Sexual encounters lasted a few minutes rather than hours. Martha was murdered about 3 hours before being found i.e. somewhere around 3am. The soldiers (to my mind) long gone. I maintain Martha was the catalyst to at least the next 3 murders.

[DVV]

Hi Mike

What is intriguing to me is that by the time Nichols was murdered, the press was already talking about a serial-type murder spree with Smith, Tabram, and then Nichols. Now, most believe Smith and Tabram were not part of the serial killings. Just think; maybe Tabram sparked a serial killing because of what the press was writing.

Mike

Not only the press, Mike. Almost all investigators considered MT a ripper-victim.
I'm not sure either that "now, most believe Tabram was not part of the serial killings". It's certainly true for Smith, but not for Tabram.

All the best

[bobh]

I have often wondered about Tabram, for this reason...if she was JTR's first victim, it is possible that this would give the best clue as to where he lived.

It is well established that initially a killer will kill near to where he lives, because of the knowledge he has of the area, and the fact that he can make his escape home quickly. Only as he gains confidence will he venture further afield.

Although it sounds awful, it is the same with any new learning experience, initially one is hesitant and unsure, but as proficiency grows, the desire to renew the experience, and execute it more skilfully, also grows.

Thus if Tabram was the first victim, she becomes very important to us, as a possible pointer to JTR's identity.

As for the timeline of the evening she died, I think Woocus has got it spot on, and the soldiers had nothing to do with her murder.

Best wishes,

Bob

[Toofew]

I wish we knew...If the units involved had the new knife bayonet or the older triangular one...And when "a bayonet" was mentioned,which type was envisioned.........

Steve, I agree with you 100%. Here is a series of Martini-Henry bayonets with blade and overall length. The Pattern 1888 is really interesting, especially if we can find out exactly when it began to be issued and to what regiments.

http://www.martinihenry.com/bayonets.htm

Best of wishes,

Billy

[Phil H]

Issue of bayonets would not necesarily prove anything, of course.

An individual might retain an old (and dependable) model - soldiers can be notoriously suspcious of innovation. A unit might take new stock into the depot but not issue it - for various reasons. I know that to be true of Napoleonic French equipment through the researches of Lucien Rousselot.

British Army units in particular can cling to the outdated for years.

Finally, has it not been alleged that such bayonets were available on street market stalls for not much money?

Phil

[Toofew]

Issue of bayonets would not necesarily prove anything, of course.

An individual might retain an old (and dependable) model - soldiers can be notoriously suspcious of innovation. A unit might take new stock into the depot but not issue it - for various reasons. I know that to be true of Napoleonic French equipment through the researches of Lucien Rousselot.

British Army units in particular can cling to the outdated for years.

Finally, has it not been alleged that such bayonets were available on street market stalls for not much money?

Phil

Phil, I believe I read that there were very many, thousands I believe the web stated, of the Pattern 1876 available. Of particular interest is that bayonet had a equiangular shape which might lend itself to Dr. Killeen identifying the sternum wound as from a bayonet.

While you are correct that soldiers, especially with seniority in service, will often retain the tried and true above new types of equipment, something like a bayonet might be different as it had to be made or modified to fit the rifle. I'm not saying it isn't possible whatsoever, simply that I think it had less odds of happening. But, I've been wrong before and hopefully will live long enough to be wrong again.

Best of wishes,

Billy

[Phil H]

something like a bayonet might be different as it had to be made or modified to fit the rifle.

I don't believe that I suggested that the old style would be retained for use on the rifle in service.

Clearly you would have to use whatever was issued - I always love the line by the Colour-Sergeant in "Zulu":

Chard: If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.

Colour Sergeant Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind.

That was in 1879, only 9 years before "Jack" struck. (Given what happened to Martha, I recognise that the last line might be too ironic for some peoples' taste. Sorry )

Bayonets were traditionally used for a wide range of things - with dough twisted round them to make bread, or as a spit through meat. Quite apart from as a hand weapon.

Phil

Phil

[Toofew]

something like a bayonet might be different as it had to be made or modified to fit the rifle.

I don't believe that I suggested that the old style would be retained for use on the rifle in service.

Clearly you would have to use whatever was issued - I always love the line by the Colour-Sergeant in "Zulu":

Chard: If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer Henry point 45 caliber miracle.

Colour Sergeant Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind.

That was in 1879, only 9 years before "Jack" struck. (Given what happened to Martha, I recognise that the last line might be too ironic for some peoples' taste. Sorry )

Bayonets were traditionally used for a wide range of things - with dough twisted round them to make bread, or as a spit through meat. Quite apart from as a hand weapon.

Phil

Phil

Phil, thanks for the mention of Zulu as, if you remember me from previous years, my suspicion was that the killer was a British Army veteran. I'm sorry that I misunderstood your statement in relation to my post about the models of bayonets for the Martini-Henry: "An individual might retain an old (and dependable) model..."; which I thought you referred to bayonets insofar as retention of older gear was concerned.

Best of wishes,

Billy

[Phil H]

No problems - it's pretty logical to link bayonet and rifle, but I could imagine other reasons (including those I mentioned) for keeping one if you were used to it. It was me who didn't make myself clear.

I don't see "Jack" the soldier to be honest, but I do think Tabram may have been the victim of two aggreived military mates.

phil

[Abby Normal]

You have a cop who tried to do an ID and a prostitute who was with Tabram try to do an ID on the soldiers and both attempts failed miserably. I would say more likely than not Tabram ran into the ripper after her encounter with the soldier.
But I would also add that if it was a soldier (or an ex soldier) that does not necessarily preclude Tabrams killer also being the ripper as many people seem to believe.