Could MJK have survived Miller's Court

[RavenDarkendale]

The body found in 13 Miller's Court had been cut up in a way to completely obliterate the identity of the woman who lay there. Why this great leap of mutilation severity? It has been postulated that it was because JtR was indoors and had more time. This could be true. But what if someone wanted to make it seem Mary Kelly was dead so that she could completely vanish to God-knows-where?

10:30am, Thomas Bowyer discovers a dead woman, or what was left of one, at 13 Miller's Court.

Consider: ID of the corpse was made because she was in Mary Kelly's bed at 13 Miller's court. Clothes belonging to MJK were folded neatly on a chair. Joseph Barnett claim to recognize her hair and eyes. A blow-up of the crime scene photo shows the eyes look hardly human, lost in a sea of ruined flesh. The hair appears to be blood stained. I don't believe I could have made identity out of those factors.

Joseph Barnett also said MJK was in the habit of allowing other prostitutes share her room and bed, which is why he moved out. Did Mary have other clothes? She was always described as dressing "shabbily genteel", a shade finer than other prostitutes.

Finally we have this

Caroline Maxwell says she saw MJK at 8:30 am, several hours after the time of death set by Dr. Philips. She gave accurate descriptions but said she didn't know MJK well. Then Maurice Philips saw her drinking in the Horn of Plenty at 10:00am. As this didn't fit time of death, (set at around 4:00 am) he was not even called as a witness at the inquest, and totally ignored by police.

Question: What if Maxwell and Philips were spot on in their identification of Mary Kelly at 8:30am and 10:00 am? By the time Maxwell saw MJK, the body in Miller's Court was 4 1/2 hours dead; by Philips sighting 6 hours dead. Barring sighting of a ghost or double, MJK was not the dead woman in the room. As I said, if these witness statements are true.

Of course, if we do as the police did and ignore this evidence because it doesn't match stated time of death, then MJK was dead at 4:00am. That means both Maxwell and Philips were at best mistaken and at worse lying.

So guys and gals, what do you think?

[Phil H]

I have an open mind on the matter - as I do on the murderer of MJK.

Mary was the most enigmatic of the victims, in almost every respect. To date, no confirmation of her background has been possible - did she tell fibs to barnett? Who knows.

The timing of the killing is also open for me - given the alleged morning sightings was she in fact murdered in daylight? or was there some mix-up as to who was seen and when?

Did Mary survive and was someone else killed in her place? the only problem with that scenario (for me) is that it seems somewhat careless to have the real Mary wandering around after the presumed time she was killed.

I am open to Mary as having Fenian associations, and to the murder being unrelated to the other Whitechapel killings (except perhaps in being made to look as if by the same hand).

I retain a personal view that the murder was highly personal and emotional and that, for various reasons, the killer was someone particularly intimate with the victim.

Phil H

[Sally]

Morris Lewis saw Mary Kelly during the morning. I wonder if he was related to Sarah Lewis.

[RavenDarkendale]

I retain a personal view that the murder was highly personal and emotional and that, for various reasons, the killer was someone particularly intimate with the victim.

Phil H

Hi Phil

And given Joseph Barnett's anger about the women who shared Mary's room and bed, anger which made him leave in a huff, he could have killed either Mary herself, or whichever "unfortunate" unfortunate enough to be there when he burst in.

As for her appearing afterward, let's speculate, but only so far as fact will cover. The body is dead by 4:00 am. Suppose Mary came home around 8:30 and saw the body, perhaps through the window as Thomas Bowyer did. It would be no great stretch to see her going to get a drink after the horror of finding the body and realizing that could be her! Perhaps she was still at it at 10:00. She then flees London to God-knows-where, perhaps back to Ireland.

God bless

Raven

[Simon Wood]

Hi Sally,

Your footnote quotation is by Ogden Nash.

Regards,

Simon

[Sally]

You are quite right Simon. I wasn't looking properly when I put it there. I like this one better.

[Psych_Nurse]

Mjk

Hi

I guess that it's very possible that the woman found at Millers Court wasn't MJK. I'm quite intrigued by the royal/masonic theories and MJK is described as 'a class above' the other victims which could make the theories more believable. The facial mutilations could well have been to disguise the identity of the victim. Equally they could have been to obliterate her femininity. Catherine Eddowes also had (slighter) facial mutilations though, so that could be the surfacing of the perpetrator's MO. Or if JTR was schizophrenic and experiencing hallucinations and such like, was this to stop the victim from watching him whilst he went about his grisly work?

I have to question that if the woman wasn't MJK, why was this done? Did she have a friend in her room and the crime was purely opportunistic and if so where did MJK go afterwards?

Or was this a masonic plot to protect the throne with MJK and her friends the targets, and MJK was tipped off and used her contacts in France or elsewhere to escape? Of course this would involve the use of an unfortunate substitute but maybe a person would resort to such measures

Regarding the statements of people who reported seeing MJK on the morning of the 9th, I guess we have to be realistic about the reasons why people would make a statement like this. Firstly, obviously this could be because it's true! Secondly, when we consider the living conditions in Whitechapel and the lives which the people themselves led, you can perhaps understand why they would say things like this; to get attention and ease the monotony of life in the gutter. I'd guess that, although Whitechapel was crowded with 'unfortunates', lives generally must have been quite lonely and joyless which could lead someone to crave attention to the point of making false statements. (I find it difficult to deviate from the mental health angle!)

One thing which I do think is strange is the the fact that the body found at Millers court was hurriedly buried and the inquest seems rushed compared to the others, when you'd think that this would not be case given that this crime involved the highest level of violence. Also the investigation was wound down quickly following this event, which suggests that something strange was going on I think.

I guess I'm pretty open minded about this!

[DGB]

I'm not so sure. I suppose my queries come from the following:

1) MJK must have consented to the death-faking duplicity (or else she'd have come forward after the fact to say it wasn't her)

2) in which case - would you really go to so much trouble, then stop off for a pint in the local and be so easily spotted?

[Graham]

With reference to the possibility that MJK had Fenian connections, I understand that Millers Court was in fact visited by two members of the Special Branch, later on the day of the murder. In 1888, the Special Branch was concerned primarily with Irish terrorist activity. I don't think the two members of Special Branch would have gone to Millers Court just for jolly.

I'm sure that this aspect has been discussed at some length elsewhere on these boards.

G

[Phil H]

While Barnett is a possible suspect in my book (I know others disagree strongly) others with whom she is known to have had relationships include Fleming and the oddly named Morganstone.

If I recall correctly, Fleming was identified as a very tall man (though that might be a scribal error) who was later certified as having mental problems. there is a thread or threads on Casebook about him.

I believe all of them are worth more work. Fleming continued to see Mary and either verbally or physically abused her, according to our sources.

Phil H

[Sally]

Phil - I think we've said quite enough on the Barnett issue

Mind you, if new evidence were to emerge which tended to incriminate him, I'd be happy to change my view.

I agree, Fleming, Morganstone - and what about Mr Hutchinson? If you believe him, he knew Mary for three years before her death.

[Phil H]

I'm not sure I believe anything that Mr H says - other than that he stood watching the archway for a long time.

[Sally]

I used to feel the same - but I've changed my mind. I now feel certain that some parts of his story, at least, were true.

Well, technically, anyway.

[Krinoid]

With reference to the possibility that MJK had Fenian connections, I understand that Millers Court was in fact visited by two members of the Special Branch, later on the day of the murder. In 1888, the Special Branch was concerned primarily with Irish terrorist activity. I don't think the two members of Special Branch would have gone to Millers Court just for jolly.

I'm sure that this aspect has been discussed at some length elsewhere on these boards.

G

where??

[Phil H]

Here, I think:

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=5001&highlight=Millers+Court

Phil H