Originally posted by Patrick S
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Probibility of Martha Tabram Being a JtR Victim
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Originally posted by Patrick S View PostI tend to believe that Killeen was likely incorrect and that the killer did not use two weapons, a "pen" or "clasp" knife for 38 wounds, and a "dagger" used for the wound that penetrated the heart.
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I'm not sure one can place a percentage of probability upon something like Tabram as "Ripper" victim. In my view it is, at this point, simply a matter of opinion, how one interprets the available, albeit limited information.
Personally, I feel as if Tabram was likely killed by the same man who killed Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, Kelly. For me, it's interesting (and perhaps notable) that a (near) square can be drawn in mapping Buck's Row, 29 Hanbury Street, Berner Street, Mitre Square, and Miller's Court, and that George Yard Buildings was located very near the center of that square. It's notable, as well - at least in my view - that the entrance to Wentworth Model Dwellings in Goulston Street is only 800 feet from the spot where Tabram was killed. I find it interesting (and perhaps significant) that one can map this perimeter and that two sites can found within that it: George Yard, near it's center, and Goulston Street, 800 feet to the west.
Thus, I can envision a scenario in which the killer - Jack the Ripper - kills his first victim (Tabram) - likely after several aborted and/or failed attempts - very near his home, and then learning that a "buffer zone" may be advantageous in the future. Thus, he finds his next victim some 2,600 feet from "home" (Nichols). 1,400 feet for Chapman, 1,800 feet for Stride, 1,900 feet or Eddowes, and 1,100 feet for Kelly. The proximity of Eddowes' apron in Goulston Street may indicate it was left by her killer as he made his way home, somewhere near George Yard which was, as I mentioned, only 800 feet from the spot upon which the apron was found.
It may also follow that the killer learned lessons with respect to method of dispatch, as well. I tend to believe that Killeen was likely incorrect and that the killer did not use two weapons, a "pen" or "clasp" knife for 38 wounds, and a "dagger" used for one, the wound to the "chest-bone" that penetrated the heart. That's never seemed likely to me and I suspect that Killeen may have been misled as the wound may have appeared different from the others as the killer may have gotten the knife stuck in the breastbone and had to pry it loose, thus creating a larger wound, as if from a larger knife.
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Originally posted by Brenda View PostI think skirts were lifted and legs were posed on these victims. Here is an article about posing in homicides that is worth a read.
"Offenders pose a body out of anger or as retaliation. The offender uses staging or posing as a weapon to punish and degrade the woman. Typically the posing consisted of spreading open the victim’s legs, inserting objects, or exposing the breasts to further degrade the victim."
Pierre
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And it's a valid point, Sam. One that I considered before when ruling out Tabram. It does seem like a different beast was at work, as the majority of her wounds were concentrated on her upper body whilst the Ripper focused on the abdomen/genitalia.
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Originally posted by Jon Guy View PostDoh ...sorry, I meant what makes you think the long bladed knife to the heart was first
"The Ripper's victims typically didn't have multiple wounds to their throats or chests. I'm not counting cut throats, because Tabram's throat was conspicuously not cut, which, in itself, is rather unusual. Surely, if you're going to use a sharp knife on someone's throat, the most effective way would be to cut the throat, not stab it multiple times."
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View Postexactly-not to mention any struggle, screams and excess blood on his person after such an attack. lesson learnt indeed!
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I think skirts were lifted and legs were posed on these victims. Here is an article about posing in homicides that is worth a read.
"Offenders pose a body out of anger or as retaliation. The offender uses staging or posing as a weapon to punish and degrade the woman. Typically the posing consisted of spreading open the victim’s legs, inserting objects, or exposing the breasts to further degrade the victim."Last edited by Brenda; 08-23-2017, 09:01 AM.
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Originally posted by Jon Guy View PostWhat makes you think the long bladed knife to the heart was last ?
As you say, the neck and chest took the brunt of the attack, which in itself, tells us that he was trying to kill her, finally swapping knives to kill her with that last one to the heart. And, after 39 lunges, he`d be knackered, lesson learnt.
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View PostI understand your guess and its certainly possible, but with all the other evidence combined-victimology, time of night, location.
The one thing the Tabram murder has in its favour is, as you say, "proximity in time to the series", which is a far stronger factor in the Tabram case than all the non-canonical victims apart from Mylett (whose candidacy as a Ripper victim is doubtful to say the least).
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostHello JonBut the Ripper's victims typically didn't have multiple wounds to their throats or chests - I'm not counting cut throats, because Tabram's throat was conspicuously not cut. That, in itself, is rather unusual; surely, if you're going to use a sharp knife on someone's throat, the most effective way of using it would be to cut the throat, not stick it multiple times. Plus, of course, it's probable that the wound which actually killed Tabram was the stab to the heart, and that the throat wounds were inflicted afterwards, in an almost complete reversal of the Ripper's approach.
As you say, the neck and chest took the brunt of the attack, which in itself, tells us that he was trying to kill her, finally swapping knives to kill her with that last one to the heart. And, after 39 lunges, he`d be knackered, lesson learnt.
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Hello JonOriginally posted by Jon Guy View PostIf we swap the word stabs for incisions, Sam, it`s a typical Ripper attack, and both Nichols and McKenzie had one or two digs to their lower abdomen, like Martha.
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostMy guess is that he showered her neck, thorax and stomach with stabs, then had one or two digs to her already-exposed abdomen before getting out of there.
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