Distribution of Tabram's wounds.

[Michael W Richards]

The reason I ask, is because I’m wondering why the coroner referred to it as a bayonet. With the dagger style bayonets they are slim blades, very long, but still knife like. Why not say knife wound? Now, a man familiar with war injuries would recognize a long slim knife to the breastbone as very like a bayonet injury. He might compare the blade used to a bayonet. But aside from that, I feel like the only wound style that could only come from a bayonet is the triangular almost rapier shaped spike style bayonet. It certainly was highly unlikely to be a smallsword wound.

And are we assuming the bayonet was the currently issued weapon of a soldier, or is it a 20 year old model picked up from a pawn shop.

Personally, having been stabbed by a small sword, I favor the triangular spike type. if I wanted to get through breastbone. That would be my first choice.

On Bank Holidays currently serving and retired military men were allowed to wear both short swords and/or bayonets. I think that you and some others have a limited perspective on what shapes these bayonets were available in at that time, some were very suitable as short swords... with flat surfaces, not triangulated. Since Killeen never mentioned triangular wounds, I would lean towards a short sword that was interpreted as a bayonet. He also mentioned dagger.

[Errata]

On Bank Holidays currently serving and retired military men were allowed to wear both short swords and/or bayonets. I think that you and some others have a limited perspective on what shapes these bayonets were available in at that time, some were very suitable as short swords... with flat surfaces, not triangulated. Since Killeen never mentioned triangular wounds, I would lean towards a short sword that was interpreted as a bayonet. He also mentioned dagger.

I know that they range from literal short swords to Bowie knives, from stilettos to pigstickers. I also know that knives come in all those shapes and sizes. So my question was simply why bayonet? Was it because the shape of the wound was peculiar to the bayonet, or was it the penetrating injury to the sternum was characteristic of a bayonet wound. Which it was. One requires an actual bayonet, the other just a sturdy dagger. Everyone was armed with something. Just trying to get a feel of the weapon.

[Joshua Rogan]

I'm sure somewhere one of the accounts of Killeen's evidence has him saying something to the effect that it must have been a weapon such as a dagger or bayonet that pierced the sternum because an ordinary pen knife would have broken.
I can't currently find this particular quote, however, so it's entirely possible that I have made it up.

[John G]

I'm sure somewhere one of the accounts of Killeen's evidence has him saying something to the effect that it must have been a weapon such as a dagger or bayonet that pierced the sternum because an ordinary pen knife would have broken.
I can't currently find this particular quote, however, so it's entirely possible that I have made it up.

" The wounds generally might have been inflicted by a knife, but such an instrument could not have inflicted one of the wounds, which went through the chest-bone. His [ DR Killeen] opinion is that one of the wounds was inflicted by some kind of dagger..."(The Times, August 10, 1888)

[Errata]

I'm sure somewhere one of the accounts of Killeen's evidence has him saying something to the effect that it must have been a weapon such as a dagger or bayonet that pierced the sternum because an ordinary pen knife would have broken.
I can't currently find this particular quote, however, so it's entirely possible that I have made it up.

I remember that... and a pen knife WOULD have snapped. As would anything with less than a full tang. Which argues for a bayonet or a dagger. A stiletto is essentially a slim railroad spike in terms of sturdiness. Why someone would have been carrying a stiletto I have no idea...

Because of the frenzy on Martha Tabram I tend to discount her being a ripper victim. But I can see a good case for both a pen knife and a long blade like a bayonet being used in at least 3 of the C5.

[DJA]

Stiletto - Wikipedia

[A P Tomlinson]

Ahahaha you’re like me. Crazy experiments.

now are you saying that most people held it underhand? With the blade above the fist, vs The fist above the blade? Or do you mean they held it in an En Garde position?

Yes, of course, sorry. We started asking them to hold a sword in the up hand /En Garde position. Most would point the sword with the blade downward (or up and down in the case of a two edged sword or dagger). The cross guard running past the line of the thumb towards the wrist and over the fingers rather than the knuckles.

It all came about when we had a few too many sherbets and started discussing the way The Dread Pirate Roberts points his rapier at Prince Humperdinck toward the end of The Princess Bride... He holds it so that the blade is parallel to the floor and we found that (MOST) people only do that if they have to hold the weapon out long enough for their arm to tire...

These were solid grip weapons with no shaping so one could literally hold them at any position within 360 degrees and it pretty much feel the same in the hand.

Many modern short bladed weapons with moulded grips almost necessitate that grip, with the single finger scooped for added traction. And the curved grip of old bone handled knives favoured that position.

A bayonet would probably (and looking at the one kindly provided by DJA, I think I'm sure) have an ovoid grip, which would lead to the weapon being held in that Blade following the line from wrist to fingers position. Both in the up hand and down hand (cross guard running under the heel of the hand toward the wrist) grip.

Again, none of what we did was in the least bit scientific.

In fact I've just written all that and realised I can sum it up better this way.
Most people held the blade at 90 degrees to the thumb and knuckles, in both an up-hand and down-hand grip. With the cross guard extending from wrist to past the fingers as opposed to knuckles to thumb.


If I can convince my Mrs to let me, I might try and conduct a couple of tests this weekend as to what sort of strike toward a standing target generates what sort of degree of force. (we used to have an old set of Fish Scales that could be adapted for such work...) Though I'm pretty sure it would be the upward thrust from the hip as opposed to the "push" stab.
The most powerful would undoubtedly be the downward strike on a prone target from a kneeling position. Both parties in a relatively fixed position allowing none of the force to dissipate.

And I'm fairly certain that the blow to the sternum could only have done it's job if Martha had been either bent double, pushed against a wall, or prone. Short of our man taking a run up.

And once again I catch myself rambling, so will go and buy some Maltesers with which to oil the wheels of my getting permission to start stabbing planks of wood in the back garden this Sunday.

[Michael W Richards]

I remember that... and a pen knife WOULD have snapped. As would anything with less than a full tang. Which argues for a bayonet or a dagger. A stiletto is essentially a slim railroad spike in terms of sturdiness. Why someone would have been carrying a stiletto I have no idea...

Because of the frenzy on Martha Tabram I tend to discount her being a ripper victim. But I can see a good case for both a pen knife and a long blade like a bayonet being used in at least 3 of the C5.

That part above that I made bold is for me the deciding factor here errata. I don't see such raw emotion in any other kill until Mary Kellys. Save perhaps the spiteful nature of the facial cuts on Kate. These were killers who were angry when they killed...maybe even the single cut to Liz is a result of momentary rage. Annie was killed and mutilated almost clinically....which is precisely why they then targeted their search for suspects on the medically trained. Something they did only in Sept.

[Losmandris]

I'm currently waiting for a reply from another source to the question of whether soldiers in the lower ranks would carry their bayonet while in uniform, but off duty during the period. We know the two punters Pearly Poll describes were wearing uniform, (cap band and sleeve stripe) but do we know if they had such weapons strapped to their belts? Off duty officers would parade around like peacocks on a Bank Holiday, feathers and dress sword and the whole shebang. But common rank and file?
I don't know.

But I'd have thought Poll' would have pointed such a thing out at the inquest? (Unless it was so common as to be taken as read, that they did...)

If anyone here knows of such military habits I'd love to hear their thoughts.

I think I would take pearly Poll's testimony with a serious pinch of salt! She doesn't appear to be the most reliable of witnesses.

Tristan

[Michael W Richards]

I think I would take pearly Poll's testimony with a serious pinch of salt! She doesn't appear to be the most reliable of witnesses.

Tristan

Remember these articles,.... uniforms, badges, swords, bayonets, etc....were available in pawn shops. Anyone could represent themselves as ex military.

[Michael W Richards]

I think I would take pearly Poll's testimony with a serious pinch of salt! She doesn't appear to be the most reliable of witnesses.

Tristan

We have the statement from a constable that on that same night he saw one soldier who said he was waiting for someone who went off with a girl, so it seems the premise Poll used is reasonable. We know some soldiers travelled in pairs.

[DJA]

That part above that I made bold is for me the deciding factor here errata. I don't see such raw emotion in any other kill until Mary Kellys. Save perhaps the spiteful nature of the facial cuts on Kate. These were killers who were angry when they killed...maybe even the single cut to Liz is a result of momentary rage. Annie was killed and mutilated almost clinically....which is precisely why they then targeted their search for suspects on the medically trained. Something they did only in Sept.

Agreed.

Abberline turning up at Nichols' inquest,given she was killed 150 meters from London Hospital ......

The experience and skill displayed at Mitre Square in the dark,is astounding. Also complete lack of arterial spray.She was not killed in the Square proper.

Regarding Tabram's demise,a stiletto tops my list.Nasty weapon for nasty people.Easily concealed.Capable of inflicting all her wounds? Dunno,don't care.Honestly.

[Joshua Rogan]

Remember these articles,.... uniforms, badges, swords, bayonets, etc....were available in pawn shops. Anyone could represent themselves as ex military.

Witness one Ted Stanley, the "pensioner".

[Joshua Rogan]

It all came about when we had a few too many sherbets and started discussing the way The Dread Pirate Roberts points his rapier at Prince Humperdinck toward the end of The Princess Bride... He holds it so that the blade is parallel to the floor and we found that (MOST) people only do that if they have to hold the weapon out long enough for their arm to tire...

He may only have been holding it that way because he lacked the strength to stand.

[Joshua Rogan]

" The wounds generally might have been inflicted by a knife, but such an instrument could not have inflicted one of the wounds, which went through the chest-bone. His [ DR Killeen] opinion is that one of the wounds was inflicted by some kind of dagger..."(The Times, August 10, 1888)

If that's the report I was thinking of, it's a lot less definitive than I remember. But it's still a fair inference, I think; that the perceived difference between the supposed blades was length and strength, rather than blade shape. But a long, strong blade can still make a short wound in soft flesh.