Distribution of Tabram's wounds.

[Michael W Richards]

My wife worked in a busy A&E department for 15 years. I am normally given "the look" when I approach anything to do with the case that is not related to what a good show Whitechapel/Ripper Street is/are, because in both cases; "...it's got that bloke from Spooks in it..."
But given the weather at the weekend, I didn't build my contraption in the garden and instead asked if she could shed any light.

She said, "has anyone considered that the knife DID break at some point, and the sternum wound was caused by a shortened blade that lacked the tip, and would be more reliant on brute force than a strong tip?"

So I'm passing that on.

That's not bad logic at all, except for the breadth of the wound pattern. A pen knife, which was presumed to create almost all the wounds, would not be as wide as a dagger/bayonet. So a broken tip as suggested would still have quickly expanded along the length of the blade to the width of the larger weapon which it was, and since the pen knife stabs are deep enough to tell the actual breadth, its still 2 weapons most probably.

[A P Tomlinson]

My wife worked in a busy A&E department for 15 years. I am normally given "the look" when I approach anything to do with the case that is not related to what a good show Whitechapel/Ripper Street is/are, because in both cases; "...it's got that bloke from Spooks in it..."
But given the weather at the weekend, I didn't build my contraption in the garden and instead asked if she could shed any light.

She said, "has anyone considered that the knife DID break at some point, and the sternum wound was caused by a shortened blade that lacked the tip, and would be more reliant on brute force than a strong tip?"

So I'm passing that on.

[Errata]

You've just outlined my main problem with even including her with the killer of Polly and Annie, let alone the full group. Why did he need a section of her apron, which I presume was to carry materials away. Surely Annies killer would have been prepared for that.

I have always been amazed that this killer could commit these murderers at all without shattering at least one knife. Maybe that’s what happened with Kate. Maybe the apron is together at the shards and take them away.

[Michael W Richards]

Any of the Ripper murders are in part a terrorist act upon those who find the bodies. So I see some of that in all of them. The oddity I see in Eddowes is the combination of sloppy abdominal cutting and fussy facial mutilations. There’s still skill there, and in some ways it’s neat. But there’s a sloppy cut at her groin that shouldn’t be there, multiple stabs in order to open the abdomen. It’s not particularly something you see in the other murders. But cutting fine lines into the lips, the eyelids, that’s detailed work. Why is there so much time devoted to the face when the abdomen looks rushed? Why are there even split targets of interest at all? Why does an abdominal mutilator futz with the top half at all except to kill her? It’s a puzzle.

You've just outlined my main problem with even including her with the killer of Polly and Annie, let alone the full group. Why did he need a section of her apron, which I presume was to carry materials away. Surely Annies killer would have been prepared for that.

[Errata]

Mortuary 'photo and Gray610 seem spot on.
Take a line on your own leg,down to just inside the knee.
Easy peasy compared to the kidney.

It's OK Sam,we're going

Okay.
A friend of mine had a node get infected, and removed. As her costumer I’ve seen the scar, and it’s on the right side but still over the pubic bone. But there’s a lot of ways that could happen, so I was unsure. She’ll probably kill me for this. But it’s an inch long incision, and when it was so inflamed it had to be removed it was slightly larger than a pea (she kept it. It’s in a jar). Finding a non inflamed one has to be an exacting task. Do you think he took one? Surely not the whole structure, that would leave her leg and pubis absolutely wrecked.

[DJA]

Mortuary 'photo and Gray610 seem spot on.
Take a line on your own leg,down to just inside the knee.
Easy peasy compared to the kidney.

It's OK Sam,we're going

[Errata]

Are you referring to where the lymph are located?

Generally yes, though the wound drives pretty far past them. I think it actually swings wide of a majority of the nodes, but I could be wrong. Aside from being incredibly difficult to locate in the dark, I’m not sure they could be located at all without fingers burrowing into the flesh, and that’s some pretty neat stitching for a wound where that happened. I’d expect more sagging like below the breast bone.

[DJA]

But there’s a sloppy cut at her groin that shouldn’t be there

Are you referring to where the lymph are located?

[Sam Flynn]

If this were an Eddowes thread, I might make some observations, Steve. As it's a Tabram one, I'd rather not.

[Errata]

Ive been on the fence about Kate for the past 30 years, I cant seem to get by the "new" lack of specificity and the increase in superfluous actions taken in her murder. And the historical precedents for cutting a victims nose as a declaration they were snitches, canaries, or stool pigeons. Its why cartels and terrorists are so inhuman with their victims, its a message that says "the rest of you...don't f*** with us."

Did you find it symmetric that the I suggest that act resembles acts taken by terrorists? What can be said more directly than some of the murders that Fall resemble terrorist acts? But Annies wasnt terror as a goal, it was a uterus...hence, the madman killer.

Any of the Ripper murders are in part a terrorist act upon those who find the bodies. So I see some of that in all of them. The oddity I see in Eddowes is the combination of sloppy abdominal cutting and fussy facial mutilations. There’s still skill there, and in some ways it’s neat. But there’s a sloppy cut at her groin that shouldn’t be there, multiple stabs in order to open the abdomen. It’s not particularly something you see in the other murders. But cutting fine lines into the lips, the eyelids, that’s detailed work. Why is there so much time devoted to the face when the abdomen looks rushed? Why are there even split targets of interest at all? Why does an abdominal mutilator futz with the top half at all except to kill her? It’s a puzzle.

[Michael W Richards]

I see the logic. I’ve argued for two men a time or two. Not sure I really buy it, but I can see it. I look more at ritual that results, so I discount Stride. And to be honest I can argue against both Kelly and Eddowes, but I usually get sucked back in by evidence of some kind of progression.

Ive been on the fence about Kate for the past 30 years, I cant seem to get by the "new" lack of specificity and the increase in superfluous actions taken in her murder. And the historical precedents for cutting a victims nose as a declaration they were snitches, canaries, or stool pigeons. Its why cartels and terrorists are so inhuman with their victims, its a message that says "the rest of you...don't f*** with us."

Did you find it symmetric that the I suggest that act resembles acts taken by terrorists? What can be said more directly than some of the murders that Fall resemble terrorist acts? But Annies wasnt terror as a goal, it was a uterus...hence, the madman killer.

[Michael W Richards]

I think it might have something to do with Mike's belief that Eddowes and Kelly were killed by different men.

Just guessing, mind

Yep, fair to say Sam. I believe Mary Kelly was killed by someone with who she had.. at least in the past, been intimate with, or worked for.

[Errata]

I use the first 2 Canonicals as evidence that a multiple killer was indeed working that area, but in those cases we have evidence that is not present in other "Canonicals". we have witness statements about both women that suggest that they were actively soliciting when they met their killer. That suggests that the killer posed as a client. they were both in less than ideal health, one being drunk, one sick, that may have been a factor. They were similar physically, in age, and the throat cuts, double cuts, were followed by abdominal mutilation. That's pretty specific to me. And its only reflected in Kates murder, and perhaps Alices, after Annies murder.

I use Annie as the quintessential Ripper victim, and because of the many virtually identical facets of their murders, respectively, I include Polly.

I see the logic. I’ve argued for two men a time or two. Not sure I really buy it, but I can see it. I look more at ritual that results, so I discount Stride. And to be honest I can argue against both Kelly and Eddowes, but I usually get sucked back in by evidence of some kind of progression.

[Sam Flynn]

Why Polly and Annie? As opposed to any other combination?

I think it might have something to do with Mike's belief that Eddowes and Kelly were killed by different men.

Just guessing, mind

[Michael W Richards]

Why Polly and Annie? As opposed to any other combination?

I use the first 2 Canonicals as evidence that a multiple killer was indeed working that area, but in those cases we have evidence that is not present in other "Canonicals". we have witness statements about both women that suggest that they were actively soliciting when they met their killer. That suggests that the killer posed as a client. they were both in less than ideal health, one being drunk, one sick, that may have been a factor. They were similar physically, in age, and the throat cuts, double cuts, were followed by abdominal mutilation. That's pretty specific to me. And its only reflected in Kates murder, and perhaps Alices, after Annies murder.

I use Annie as the quintessential Ripper victim, and because of the many virtually identical facets of their murders, respectively, I include Polly.