Distribution of Tabram's wounds.

[A P Tomlinson]

Hello everyone, long time lurker, first time poster... (The A stands for Andrew but everyone calls me Tommy.)

To the point...
Do we have anywhere a breakdown of the wounds sustained by Martha?
Specifically, how many were caused by each of the two weapons used?

I've read that "the majority" of the wounds were caused by a knife as opposed to the larger (bayonet?) blade, but was that like a 20:19 majority, or more like 35:4?
According to the inquest, it seems as if perhaps only one wound was caused by the heavier blade; the "chest bone", but I'd be interested to hear if anyone has anything more specific, and grateful if there is a source I can see for more information.

Cheers

[Michael W Richards]

This is in our Victims folder here;

"The post-mortem examination of Martha Tabram was held by Dr. Timothy Killeen (also spelled Keeling or Keleene) at 5:30 AM on the morning of August 7th. Tabram was described as a plump middle-aged woman, about 5'3" tall, dark hair and complexion. The time of death was estimated at about three hours before the examination (around 2:30-2:45 AM). In all, there were thirty-nine stab wounds including:

• 5 wounds (left lung)
• 2 wounds (right lung)
• 1 wound (heart)
• 5 wounds (liver)
• 2 wounds (spleen)
• 6 wounds (stomach)

Martha Tabram's death certificate.




According to Killeen, the focus of the wounds were the breasts, belly, and groin area. In his opinion, all but one of the wounds were inflicted by a right-handed attacker, and all but one seemed to have been the result of an "ordinary pen-knife." There was, however, one wound on the sternum which appeared to have been inflicted by a dagger or bayonet (thereby leading police to believe that a sailor was the perpetrator)."

That Bayonet stab is the coup de grace. The rest are frenzied, and although major organs were hit, none of the stabs would neccesarily be fatal on their own. The fact is the one bayonet stab is all that was needed to kill her, so why the other 38? Anger, rage, frustration, humiliation, any of the above mixed with too much alcohol.

[Joshua Rogan]

Welcome to the boards, Tommy!

Dr Killeen also described a wound to the "lower portion of the body".
Some reports also have him giving a total of 39 stab wounds, of which 17 were to the breast and 9 to the throat.
So, along with the 21 stabs which penetrated organs*, as detailed above by Michael, there are another 10 which we know the rough location, leaving 8 which either missed all her organs or didn't penetrate deeply enough to damage any.
But it was the single wound to the heart which indicated a strong weapon such as a dagger, because it also penetrated the breastbone.

For what it's worth, I don't think that Killeen's evidence completely rules out all the wounds being caused by the same weapon (although he doesn't think they were). It's possible (but unlikely) that only the tip of the dagger (or whatever) was used to make the other 38 wounds.


*assuming, of course, that none of the stabs penetrated more than one organ at once.

[Abby Normal]

Welcome to the boards, Tommy!

Dr Killeen also described a wound to the "lower portion of the body".
Some reports also have him giving a total of 39 stab wounds, of which 17 were to the breast and 9 to the throat.
So, along with the 21 stabs which penetrated organs*, as detailed above by Michael, there are another 10 which we know the rough location, leaving 8 which either missed all her organs or didn't penetrate deeply enough to damage any.
But it was the single wound to the heart which indicated a strong weapon such as a dagger, because it also penetrated the breastbone.

For what it's worth, I don't think that Killeen's evidence completely rules out all the wounds being caused by the same weapon (although he doesn't think they were). It's possible (but unlikely) that only the tip of the dagger (or whatever) was used to make the other 38 wounds.


*assuming, of course, that none of the stabs penetrated more than one organ at once.

HI JR
did he elaborate on the wound to the "lower portion of the body" ? is it described more? or its specific location?

[A P Tomlinson]

Thanks chaps.
I imagine the width of the blade added to the supposition of two weapons; "an ordinary penknife" having a fraction of the thickness of a stout blade like a bayonet. The bulk of my knowledge on such weapons generally rests in earlier swords, knives and daggers, but a serious "stabbing" weapon would need to be thicker to serve it's purpose.
Bayonets of that period were generally longer than the ones we might think of now, and most were more like swords than daggers in length. (What any player of D&D might refer to as a "short sword")
And most (like a lot of swords) would be sharpened only up to the point for a few inches (as once it's in... the rest of the blade doesn't need to be too sharp to follow the tip along it's journey...)
To use a bayonet to inflict a sternum piercing heart wound to a prone victim would require force and accuracy to avoid the blade slipping.

Perhaps the attacks to the breast area were failed attempts at the heart and required the attacker to "switch up"?

I am a little confused that the coroner would refer to a "pen knife". Unless it meant something different in 1888.

Unless it has a locking blade, a folding knife is a very dangerous weapon to the attacker if used in downward stabbing. Even the slightest deviation or resistance in the wrong direction would cause the blade to fold in on itself trapping or slicing into the wielders fingers or back of the hand. Great for cutting, not so much for stabbing.

Also, without some form of cross guard or "quillon" any blade risks self injury as if the knife strikes a bone or tough bit of cartilage and stops suddenly the risk of the hand slipping down the blade and slicing open the fingers or palm exists.

I wish I could get a look at the pattern of wounds. It might not be entirely beyond the realm of possibility that some type of scissors or shears were used. Open for the majority of the wounds as the inside cutting edge would make for fast, shallow, penetration of the lower abdomen simple, and the finger guard would allow full force, but required closing and doubling down for the coup de grace to penetrate the sternum?

I'm rambling now... sorry allowed a bit of stream of consciousness to take over.

I have to admit I'm less interested in finding JtR's true identity as I am in trying to establish whether Martha and Lizzie Stride were his work. It seems that every time I turn a page of a book or skim a note on the Casebook that I swing from "Yes, both are" to "Neither were." Right now I'm in the camp that Martha was, but Lizzie wasn't.

But I might be talking myself round on Martha...

[Michael W Richards]

I own pen knives and bayonets used during this period, their wound patterns will not be similar.

[Sam Flynn]

"According to Killeen, the focus of the wounds were the breasts, belly, and groin area."

The Wiki got that a bit wonky: the focus of the stabs was overwhelmingly on the upper abdomen, chest and throat. Only one wound was in the lower body and, as far as I can recall, it isn't clear that it was in the groin. The breasts don't get much of a look-in, either.

The fullest account I've found of Dr Killeen's testimony is in the East London Observer of 11th August 1888, relevant sections below:

"the left lung was penetrated in five places, and the right lung in two places [...] The heart was... penetrated in one place. [...] The liver was healthy, but was penetrated in five places; the spleen was perfectly healthy, and was penetrated in two places; both the kidneys were perfectly healthy; the stomach was also perfectly healthy, but was penetrated in six places; the intestines were healthy, and so were all the other organs. The lower portion of the body was penetrated in one place, the wound being three inches in length and one in depth. [...]
I don't think that all the wounds were inflicted with the same instrument, because there was one wound on the breast bone which did not correspond with the other wounds on the body. The instrument with which the wounds were inflicted, would most probably be an ordinary knife, but a knife would not cause such a wound as that on the breast bone. That wound I should think would have been inflicted with some form of dagger."

You may notice that the tally of stabs doesn't add up to 39. That's because that report doesn't mention the multiple wounds to the throat and breast (chest), which do get mentioned in the Morning Advertiser of the 10th:

"There were no fewer than nine in the throat and 17 in the breast. [Killeen] had since made a post-mortem examination, and found the left lung penetrated in five places and the right lung in two places. The heart had been penetrated, but only in one place [...]. The liver was healthy, but penetrated in five places, and the spleen was penetrated in two places. The stomach was healthy, but penetrated in six places. In witness's opinion the wounds were not inflicted with the same instrument, there being a deep wound in the breast from some long, strong instrument, while most of the others were done apparently by a penknife. The large wound could be caused by a sword bayonet or dagger."

[Errata]

It might make sense that this was a pack murder. One frenzied and furious does the stabbing, another makes a very deliberate blow to keep her from talking.

though I don’t recall, is this the era with dagger shaped bayonets or spikes?

[DJA]

Varied.

British Pattern 1887 Mk.I Bayonet | Bayonets | Lawrance Ordnance

[Abby Normal]

The Wiki got that a bit wonky: the focus of the stabs was overwhelmingly on the upper abdomen, chest and throat. Only one wound was in the lower body and, as far as I can recall, it isn't clear that it was in the groin. The breasts don't get much of a look-in, either.

The fullest account I've found of Dr Killeen's testimony is in the East London Observer of 11th August 1888, relevant sections below:

"the left lung was penetrated in five places, and the right lung in two places [...] The heart was... penetrated in one place. [...] The liver was healthy, but was penetrated in five places; the spleen was perfectly healthy, and was penetrated in two places; both the kidneys were perfectly healthy; the stomach was also perfectly healthy, but was penetrated in six places; the intestines were healthy, and so were all the other organs. The lower portion of the body was penetrated in one place, the wound being three inches in length and one in depth. [...]
I don't think that all the wounds were inflicted with the same instrument, because there was one wound on the breast bone which did not correspond with the other wounds on the body. The instrument with which the wounds were inflicted, would most probably be an ordinary knife, but a knife would not cause such a wound as that on the breast bone. That wound I should think would have been inflicted with some form of dagger."

You may notice that the tally of stabs doesn't add up to 39. That's because that report doesn't mention the multiple wounds to the throat and breast (chest), which do get mentioned in the Morning Advertiser of the 10th:

"There were no fewer than nine in the throat and 17 in the breast. [Killeen] had since made a post-mortem examination, and found the left lung penetrated in five places and the right lung in two places. The heart had been penetrated, but only in one place [...]. The liver was healthy, but penetrated in five places, and the spleen was penetrated in two places. The stomach was healthy, but penetrated in six places. In witness's opinion the wounds were not inflicted with the same instrument, there being a deep wound in the breast from some long, strong instrument, while most of the others were done apparently by a penknife. The large wound could be caused by a sword bayonet or dagger."

hi sam
thanks for posting this. the cut to the lower part being three inches long and one inch deep sounds more like a rip/ slash than a stab no?

[Sam Flynn]

hi sam
thanks for posting this. the cut to the lower part being three inches long and one inch deep sounds more like a rip/ slash than a stab no?

The one inch depth doesn't sound much like a rip to me, Abs; if it was, the three inch length doesn't make it much of a slash either. It could well have been a stab gone wrong.

[Joshua Rogan]

HI JR
did he elaborate on the wound to the "lower portion of the body" ? is it described more? or its specific location?

Only on the size (as posted by Sam) as far as I can find. I think the ELO was the only paper to mention this cut. Although the Echo 10 Aug does contain this snippet which may be referring to it;

"thirty-nine stabs on her body-one over her heart, and others of a nature too revolting to name"

[Joshua Rogan]

I own pen knives and bayonets used during this period, their wound patterns will not be similar.

Next time you have a joint of meat for Sunday lunch, how about stabbing your dinner with both a pointy bayonet and a pen knife to a depth of a couple of inches and seeing if you can tell the difference. I'd be genuinely interested in the results.

[Losmandris]

Hello everyone, long time lurker, first time poster... (The A stands for Andrew but everyone calls me Tommy.)

To the point...
Do we have anywhere a breakdown of the wounds sustained by Martha?
Specifically, how many were caused by each of the two weapons used?

I've read that "the majority" of the wounds were caused by a knife as opposed to the larger (bayonet?) blade, but was that like a 20:19 majority, or more like 35:4?
According to the inquest, it seems as if perhaps only one wound was caused by the heavier blade; the "chest bone", but I'd be interested to hear if anyone has anything more specific, and grateful if there is a source I can see for more information.

Cheers

I wonder if the wound pattern is consistent with Martha either standing up or lying down? Could the explanation that they were inflicted with the one weapon be that the 39 or so were made whilst she was standing up and the last whilst she was lying down. I am thinking that you would be able to exert far more force on someone lying on the ground than you would with some one standing up. Anything in the post-mortem to indicate position?

Tristan

[Sam Flynn]

I wonder if the wound pattern is consistent with Martha either standing up or lying down?

I'd have thought that we'd have seen a predominance of stabs to the abdomen if she'd been standing, in that it's probably easier to stab up from below than it would be to rain 17 blows on the chest of a standing person. It would also be very difficult to repeatedly hit the throat (nine times in succession!) with the victim standing and, presumably, moving about before she passed out. Although Martha was rather chubby, her throat would still have been a comparatively narrow target. Finally, she'd surely have succumbed and slumped to the ground long before the 38th blow was landed.