Dr. KIlleen & The Bayonet Wound Theory

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I have always pictured Tabram entering George yard buildings on her own, her motive to try and get away from a man that was pestering her, she thought if she entered the buiding , her accoster would not bother her assuming that she lived there.
The reason why I believe that, stems from the Nichols murder, as I have visions of Polly being assulted by her killer in Brady street, and trying in vain to gain entry into a household.
The rough approach I believe is the key to the killers method, in the Case of Chapman, I have a hunch that although she may have gone with the elderly man in the yard, he infact was not her killer, it was when the client had left the entrance to number29 leaving Annie still in the yard, that her killer entered and viciously attacked her knocking against the fence.
In the case of Stride, the same approach seems likely, hense the manhandling of her at the yard entrance.
Because of this,I express doubts that the man seen with Eddowes? was her killer as the MO is not the same ie, no rough treatment, we cant say 'Ah but he was aware people were about' as it did not worry him in Berner street.
There is some indication that Eddowes was roughly handled by her assailant, that being , the bruising [ of recent origin] a round one, situated between the thumb and forefinger of the left hand, which could indicate that her hand was grasped very tightly, as if being pulled along..
I would suggest that she rejected the seamans advances, and he left, then she either cut off through the square, and was followed by her killer, or attacked as she approached the corner.
In the case of Kelly, neither Blotchy, Astracan, or Maxwells Market porter, appear to have behaving violently, although the latter could hardly do so in broad daylight, and the only suggestion that one man that night may have been aggressive comes from a alleged conversation to Coxs neice, by her aunt. My aunt was standing by her door, when she heard kelly and man coming down the court,Kelly saying'All right my luv, dont pull me along'.
All the above suggestions have indicated to me that Jtr may have been a real rough diamond, and not the clever charmer that most people believe.
Regards Richard.

[Carrotty Nell]

[QUOTE=bolo;13916]Of course this is just a bit of speculation on my part... however, I find this (obviously flawed) theory more plausible than that of a sleeping Tabram getting spontaneously stabbed to death by a murderer who had a habit of peering into staircases at night.
QUOTE]
Hello Bolo
That wasn't what I had in mind. I agree Jack/whoever happening to saunter up the stairs of George Yard building and thinking 'Oh look, a sleeping whore, let's kill her' is way implausible. What I had in mind though is that Martha was not a random victim. The killer had a personal grudge against her. He either saw her going into the tenement and knew that her custom was to sleep on the landing, or she had told him she was going to sleep on the landing. Either way he waited a suitable time to allow her to fall insensible and then went after her.
The alternatives are quite implausible in my view.
The killer dragging or carrying a CURVACIOUS (N.B. Mr Fisherman!) unconscious woman up the stairs is bizarre. Quite apart from the noise this would make, why on earth would he? He could find a spot at least and probably more private at ground level. And I cannot believe that a prostitute would take a punter onto the landing of a tenement block where anyone could intrude at any moment.

[bolo]

Nell,

point taken, and thanks for the clarification. The more I think of it, the less plausible my dragging-or-carrying idea becomes. Noise is one aspect, another one is Tabram's weight.

However, the possibility that her killer saw her entering the staircase, then waited for another ten or twenty minutes for her to fall asleep and finally went to kill her (i.e. lured her up because he had a grudge against her) has a different ring to it than the following murders of that year, at least for me. If it wasn't for the fact that the killer focussed on Tabram's genitalia and lower body parts, one could argue that the absence of throat cuts, slashes and mutilations may also point to a "domestic" (...god I just said the d-word... damn...) killing, one that had been carried out in rage by an ex-aquaintance, not in order to mutilate but to "just" punish and finally kill her.

[Fisherman]

Carotty Nell writes:

"The killer dragging or carrying a CURVACIOUS (N.B. Mr Fisherman!) unconscious woman up the stairs is bizarre."

I humbly bow in shame for that sentence of mine in an earlier post that necessitated your counterstrike, Nell. I will blame it on the fact that English is not my native tongue. Curvacious was of course the very word I so miserably failed to find.

...and I am with you all the way on your notion that it would be a bizarre thing to do to drag that Mae West-copy up a flight of stairs - up to the doors of the tenants, as it were.

One thing that struck me when I read your line "I agree Jack/whoever happening to saunter up the stairs of George Yard building and thinking 'Oh look, a sleeping whore, let's kill her' is way implausible", is that we actually have information on people sleeping rough in George Yard buildings. That apparently was quite normal.

So how about it being something of a second home to Martha? Maybe she used it often, both to do business in and to sleep rough in? And maybe other prostitutes did too?

If that was the case, then it would be a lot simpler to see an initial grudge on behalf of a tenant there growing into full-blown hatred and madness. Then it would not be the case of a casual encounter, but a case of finally doing something about a situation that was becoming intolerable.

Imagine if we had a mr X, who was known to tell the rough-sleepers of and advice them to go elsewhere, but who was scorned with foul language in return.

Just a thought, Nell...

The best,
Fisherman
(mumbling "curvacious, curvacious, curvacious, cur....")

[Fisherman]

Bolo writes:

"(...god I just said the d-word... damn...)"

Don´t worry, Bolo - it happens to the best of us!

The best (ehrm!)
Fisherman

[Celesta]

Hi,
I have always pictured Tabram entering George yard buildings on her own, her motive to try and get away from a man that was pestering her, she thought if she entered the buiding , her accoster would not bother her assuming that she lived there.
The reason why I believe that, stems from the Nichols murder, as I have visions of Polly being assulted by her killer in Brady street, and trying in vain to gain entry into a household.
The rough approach I believe is the key to the killers method, in the Case of Chapman, I have a hunch that although she may have gone with the elderly man in the yard, he infact was not her killer, it was when the client had left the entrance to number29 leaving Annie still in the yard, that her killer entered and viciously attacked her knocking against the fence.
In the case of Stride, the same approach seems likely, hense the manhandling of her at the yard entrance.
Because of this,I express doubts that the man seen with Eddowes? was her killer as the MO is not the same ie, no rough treatment, we cant say 'Ah but he was aware people were about' as it did not worry him in Berner street.
There is some indication that Eddowes was roughly handled by her assailant, that being , the bruising [ of recent origin] a round one, situated between the thumb and forefinger of the left hand, which could indicate that her hand was grasped very tightly, as if being pulled along..
I would suggest that she rejected the seamans advances, and he left, then she either cut off through the square, and was followed by her killer, or attacked as she approached the corner.
In the case of Kelly, neither Blotchy, Astracan, or Maxwells Market porter, appear to have behaving violently, although the latter could hardly do so in broad daylight, and the only suggestion that one man that night may have been aggressive comes from a alleged conversation to Coxs neice, by her aunt. My aunt was standing by her door, when she heard kelly and man coming down the court,Kelly saying'All right my luv, dont pull me along'.
All the above suggestions have indicated to me that Jtr may have been a real rough diamond, and not the clever charmer that most people believe.
Regards Richard.

I see some things in here that I, too, have pondered. I was just reading about Chapman this morning. I think a lot of her tale hinges on whether the time of death was anywhere near correct and whether or not John Richardson was mistaken about her body not being there. The scenario you mention could have happened with, or without, the older gent that Mrs. Long saw. She may well have led him, or someone else, into the yard, and the killer came along after. It just depends on what you think about her testimony and whether you believe the woman she saw was really Chapman. I could work either way.

As for Martha, I still see her leading someone up to the landing. Someone could have followed after this client left, or she encountered him as she came back down. Of course, as Mitch and others points out, landings and such sheltered areas were popular spots for floozies, the homeless, and the drunks, and we know, from the witnesses, that this spot was known. So who knows? Maybe she did nip up there to take a nap and was followed and caught unaware.

I think there is merit in the rough-handling idea. I wish we knew more. I do think it is more likely he was a "rough diamond" than a smoothly faceted one.

Also, Liz Stride was heard to tell a man "Not tonight. Some other night." This could have been just the beginning of her struggle with her killer. It indicates that she was unwilling, possibly because of bad vibes, or some other reason, to go with this guy.

[Cap'n Jack]

I've just been reading through a very interesting and perhaps pertinent case to that of Martha Tabram, in that in the case I have been reading involved a woman being stabbed at least twenty times with a bayonet by her attacker, but the doctors who examined the woman were perplexed by the wounds which seemed to indicate that two weapons had been used in the attack, for some wounds and stabs seemed much shallower and thinner than other more deeper and broader wounds... however the case was resolved when it was discovered that the bayonet had a leather sheath upon its length which if not removed produced shallower and thinner wounds as the leather came up against the victim's skin, but once removed it produced the typical deeper and broader wounds one would expect from a bayonet type weapon.
In other words the attacker first struck with the bayonet sheathed, probably in temper, and then removed the sheath to make the killing wounds.
The trial is a long one, but I can post it, if there is an interest.

[protohistorian]

Your running along and they are clanging together (The knives I mean!!)

Does this mean Tabram was a "Ripper" victim?

Not at all. Sudgen gives an anecdote regarding a hairdresser accosting a coffeyvendor and that individual was carrying more than bladed weapon. I think that with regards to the bayonet idea we should consider a pair of unopened scissors as a potential candidate for this weapon. Sugden mentions that the afore mentioned individual was carrying just such an item. Barbers, like most professionals that rely on their tools, generally guard them zealously, and I wound not think it s strech for such an individual to carry said tools with him, to and from his place of employment simply as a means of assuring the state of the instruments through which he earned a living. Further, if one were incined to carry more than one edged weapon, there are ample ways to do so without signifigant hinderance.

[Steve S]

It doesn't help the the British Army changed bayonets fron the triangular socket to the knife style....in 1888!....But I'm sure there's a reference to 2nd-hand ones being sold in Petticoat Lane,so it doesn't need to tie in a soldier at all.......
Steve

[YankeeSergeant]

bayonets

It doesn't help the the British Army changed bayonets fron the triangular socket to the knife style....in 1888!....But I'm sure there's a reference to 2nd-hand ones being sold in Petticoat Lane,so it doesn't need to tie in a soldier at all.......
Steve

Steve, as early as the American Civil War and the Crimean war British NCO were issued sword bayonets several finding their way to the states imported from England. In fact New York State Infantry carried the Enfield in great preponederence. The notable exception being the Irish Brigade.

[Wickerman]

It doesn't help the the British Army changed bayonets fron the triangular socket to the knife style....in 1888!....But I'm sure there's a reference to 2nd-hand ones being sold in Petticoat Lane,so it doesn't need to tie in a soldier at all.......
Steve

Tom Cullen provided a footnote in his, Autumn of Terror, p 36 ppbk.

"An unexpected result of the Tabram inquest was that soldiers stationed in the Tower of London were forbidden to carry bayonets or any sidearms while on leave. This information was given to me by James W. Bousfield, whose mother ran a boarding-house at No. 4 Star court (now Planet Street) where Martha Tabram lodged...."Autumn of Terror, Cullen, 1973.

Believe it, or not...

[YankeeSergeant]

bayonets

Tom Cullen provided a footnote in his, Autumn of Terror, p 36 ppbk.

"An unexpected result of the Tabram inquest was that soldiers stationed in the Tower of London were forbidden to carry bayonets or any sidearms while on leave. This information was given to me by James W. Bousfield, whose mother ran a boarding-house at No. 4 Star court (now Planet Street) where Martha Tabram lodged...."Autumn of Terror, Cullen, 1973.

Believe it, or not...

I teach Civil War era bayonet drill and I have handled both Triangular and Sword bayonets. Obviously the Triangular bayonet lacking a hilt would be next to useless in Tabram's murder. A sword bayonet could have been used but I would expect to deep wounds prompting massive damage. In my novel I pose the theory and use it for fictional purposes that Tabram is killed by a sailor she tried to steal from with a dagger that gets stuck and has to be wiggled to be removed. One person with two weapons would be cumbersome to my mind and two killers, well the eminent Dr. Benjamin Franklin said, "Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead."

[Wickerman]

I teach Civil War era bayonet drill and I have handled both Triangular and Sword bayonets.

Ann & I use to go to Civil War reenactments every year around the Province, we enjoyed the costumes and history of the times. I wore a CSA kepi for every day use back in the 90's, loved the cap. I should get another. I bought it from a Suttler's somewhere in Michigan.

Obviously the Triangular bayonet lacking a hilt would be next to useless in Tabram's murder....

Certainly, if Tabram had been stabbed with the spike-bayonet I would expect it to go clean through to her spine. And, there would have been no mention of a 'dagger-like' weapon.

In my novel I pose the theory and use it for fictional purposes that Tabram is killed by a sailor she tried to steal from with a dagger that gets stuck and has to be wiggled to be removed....

Interesting..
You are no doubt aware that some have theorized that a smaller knife was used on Tabram to produce the wound in the breasbone. That the reason the hole 'looked' bigger was because the killer had to wiggle the knife to get it out - stupid idea!
Anyone could recreate this scenario by placing a plastic lid over a full bowl of jelly (jello). Then stab a penknife through the plastic lid, into the jelly and then wiggle the knife in an attempt to make the hole larger WITHOUT leaving any 'wiggle' impressions in the jelly - impossible!

The actual wound was larger and more important deeper, which side-to-side wiggling cannot reproduce.

[PC Roadnight]

The British Army was then using the Lee-Metford rifle with the sword pattern/88 bayonet with a 12 inch blade. Some, particularly Colonial and Militia units, would probably have still had the Martini-Henry with the correspondingly longer sword bayonet of 18.5 inch blades.

The MH 1886/7 sword bayonet was really too unwieldy off the rifle to be used for repeated stabbing, but the Metford bayonet at 12 inches was eminently suitable.

As a previous poster was I think saying the earlier triangular socket bayonet was never intended as a hand held weapon, being again only really effective when attached to the rifle.

Peter

[Batman]

Saying Killeen was influenced by PC Barrett and/or media doesn't explain that Killeen identified a left hand was used on the chest wound.

So not only did Killeen identify a different knife, he said it was done by another hand.

In order for the single knife theory to work you need an ambidextrous killer ... Or just smear Killeen as incompetent.