Dr. KIlleen & The Bayonet Wound Theory

[Fisherman]

Hi Bolo!

"Changing weapons during a frenzied attack (and the number of wounds points to that) sounds unlikely to me."

But if the attack was NOT one of frenzy, but on of malicious, controlled sadism? Then we are dealing with a different matter, are we not?

Also, if you hold a frail, thin, narrow blade in your hand, have access to a heavy dagger, and make a decision to make an almighty stab through the breastplate of a victim - then that should solve your problem for you.

The best, Bolo!
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hello Fisherman,

Ok, thanks for the clarification.I think the misunderstandings illsutrate quite well how complex the issue is.

-The blade that caused the minor wounds, was very narrow and thin, making entrance holes reminiscent of those made by a pen-knife, BUT this blade did not have itīs length in common with a pen-knife. It was a long, sharp, narrow and thin blade, and thus it tallies EXACTLY with the weapon Phillips spoke of after having examined Chapman, mind you!

Just one question (bare with me ):
How do this support the idea about two weapons (although I personally subscribe to it myself)? Couldn't that same weapon also have been used for the larger wound? Or do you mean that the entrance width of that wound do not correspond with the length, especially comparing to the other 38 wounds) in order to ascribe it to the same weapon?

-And to be fair, it seem Killeen spoke of "an ordinary knife, such as a pen-knife".

Yes I agree with that, although it remains a mystery what he means with 'ordinary'.

All the best, Fisherman!

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Fisherman,

I can only repeat, to this day I have never seen a murder with so many stab wounds that is NOT made in a frenzy. They are never made in a controlled fashion - it just doesn't happen in real life.
Such multiple stabbing is as good as always the result of a frenzied attack, and there is no support whatsoever for any signs of a deliberate controlled design in the wound pattern of Tabram.

All the best

[bolo]

The attacker may have focussed on specific areas of Tabram's body but anything else seems like a frantic outbreak to me.

So frantic in fact that his knife broke when he hit the sternum and the remaining sharp stump of the knife created a wound that was bigger and more gaping than the other stab wounds. Then the attacker took the two pieces of the knife with him and ran away.

A bit simplistic, sure, but this a) would eliminate the need for a second knife and b) fit to my mental image of an emotional act carried out by a violent client whom Tabram may have serviced before something happened that let him explode and kill her in a bloody rage.

[Fisherman]

Glenn!

You ask: "Couldn't that same weapon also have been used for the larger wound? Or do you mean that the entrance width of that wound do not correspond with the length, especially comparing to the other 38 wounds) in order to ascribe it to the same weapon?"

The entrance width of the stab through the breastbone did not look as it could have been made by a pen-knife, simple as that. If it had had such an appearance, Killeen would have said that all wounds could have been made by the same weapon, right?

Thus, the hole through the sternum gave away the width and thickness of a weapon that made punctures that were quite large; large enough, in fact, for Killeen to recognize the fact that the hole he saw was likely made by a heavy dagger or a bayonet. My guess is that the hole through the sternum displayed a width of at least an inch and probably more, for heavy daggers and bayonets as you know are of this width.
That would have been totally incomparable to the other wounds - for Killeen to have spoken about a pen-knife resemblance here, they would have been perhaps just half an inch - or less!

You may of course argue that there are narrow daggers and broad pen-knives, but it does not apply in this discussion, since Killeen would of course not speak of a pen-knife with a blade three quarters of an inch and a dagger with a blade three quarets of an inch - the reason he spoke of two blades would have lain in the estimated sizes of the blades. Nothing but a clearly marked difference could have prompted him to suggest two weapons.

As for your ruling out anything but frenzy in Tabramīs case, I know that this is your stance. And I know that if we are to judge statistically, you will win the bout. But I will urge you to ponder two things:

1. If he was enraged, and if he was hacking away with weapon number one in blind rage - why did he suddenly make a change to weapon number two before going for the heart? Seems deliberate enough to me. And I am keeping to the suggestion that only one man was involved.

2. Show me another case - any other case- where the killer is as lucky as Tabrams killer was, when it comes to the percentage of hitting vital inner organs. Time after time he pierces stomach, liver, spleen, lungs, heart - it seems there was no way he could get any of the stabs wrong. It is a tally of bulls-eye hits that stretches way beyond sheer luck, the way I look upon it.

Also, there are no stabs to anything but the trunk. No defense wounds, no stabs to the arms, the thighs... Combine this with the total silence evinced, and the conclusion that she was stabbed in an unconcious state becomes inevitable. The signs of possible strangulation and/or the blow she suffered on the head ensured that. Meaning that there was no struggle!
So if he DID stab in a frenzy, he did so in total silence with her completely passive from the outset, the way things suggest.

When I look at all of this, Glenn, what I see is a forty-something prostitute, killed by somebody who first subdued her by choking her, and then took out his knife and shoved it into her trunk over and over again in total silence, probably gaining a huge thrill. He sinks her knife into her neck a number of times. He also cuts her lower abdomen, the area under which the uterus lies hidden, leaving a three inch wide and one inch deep wound - not sufficient to open her up but more than sufficient to speculate that such was his aim. He carries a blade that seems to be the twin - or the real thing - of the blade Phillips described after the Chapman strike. And he has a second weapon, a heavy dagger, very apt for making fierce cuts to the bone in the necks of doubly unfortunate women.

It does not get very much more compelling than that, Glenn.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Bolo writes:

"So frantic in fact that his knife broke when he hit the sternum and the remaining sharp stump of the knife created a wound that was bigger and more gaping than the other stab wounds. Then the attacker took the two pieces of the knife with him and ran away."

Bolo, get hold of a number of knives and some pieces of wood. Then stab away, until one of the blades break. After that, you take a look at the damage made by that broken blade, and guess what you will see?
You will see that since the blade did not have the stamina to travel through the wood, it broke. The wood was consequentially HARDER than the blade and REMAINED UNPIERCED.

Blades that break leave unfinished business. And I hope you are not suggesting that he made the stab throug the breastbone after that, with a broken off blade? Such a suggestion is very easy to give an apt name, Bolo: It is POINTLESS.

The best, Bolo!
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

1. If he was enraged, and if he was hacking away with weapon number one in blind rage - why did he suddenly make a change to weapon number two before going for the heart? Seems deliberate enough to me. And I am keeping to the suggestion that only one man was involved.

We don't know with certainty if two weapons were involved, but if there were, it would support the idea of two offenders.
There could of course be a number of reasons for why he would change weapons and still be in rage - people do the strangest things, and especially in connection with uncontrolled overkill there is often unexplainable elements. You can't expect people to act and think rational.
If he was drunk or in any way intoxicated or psychotic, he could change weapon four times over and still be in furious rage. People do not always act like we expect them to. But personally, I think a possible change of weapon indicate a second offender rather than one changing weapon. But we will never know.

2. Show me another case - any other case- where the killer is as lucky as Tabrams killer was, when it comes to the percentage of hitting vital inner organs. Time after time he pierces stomach, liver, spleen, lungs, heart - it seems there was no way he could get any of the stabs wrong. It is a tally of bulls-eye hits that stretches way beyond sheer luck, the way I look upon it.

Also, there are no stabs to anything but the trunk. No defense wounds, no stabs to the arms, the thighs... Combine this with the total silence evinced, and the conclusion that she was stabbed in an unconcious state becomes inevitable. The signs of possible strangulation and/or the blow she suffered on the head ensured that. Meaning that there was no struggle!
So if he DID stab in a frenzy, he did so in total silence with her completely passive from the outset, the way things suggest.

Yes, I know you've delivered this argument before, but I have never understood it. How is it 'lucky' to manage to pierce through practically all organs several times? Do you really think he thought to himself: right, now I am going to hit the spleen four or five times and then the heart... I must remeber to give lver some hits as well...' Don't you see how absurd this scenario is?
Now, if there was ONE hit on every organ, we could actually speak of signs of a deliberate pattern, but SEVERAL stabs in a majority of the organs? Sorry, Fisherman, but that is no design at all. It is just stabbing and overkill - nothing else.

As for the trunk, that is not strange at all - fact is, most overkill stabbings only occur on the upper body, abdomin and groin while stabbing on the arms and legs are highly unusual. One could argue about several reasons for why this is, but there is certainly nothing singular about it and is certainly no sign of any pattern or design scheme.

Furthermore, there is no reason whatsoever to even speculate that the large wound was an attempt to open up the abdomin - unless one wants to see things that aren't there and desperately is trying to make things into something they aren't.
There is nothing - I repeat nothing - that even indicates that this was an attempt in such direction. It was a cut - period.

Again, the whole idea that Tabram's wounds were inflicted in a controlled manner and not in a frenzied rage is one of the craziest notions I have ever come across in connection with the Ripper and I am afraid you will NEVER succeed in making me buy into the idea.

All the best, Fisherman!

[bolo]

Fisherman,

perhaps you remember my posts about my pork-and-veal-slicing experiments. Well, I've done other experiments as well with knives and bones and found that knives break in all sorts of ways. Sometimes they become unuseable afterwards but sometimes they become even more pointed and sharp depending on the nature and position of the breakpoint.

What's more, if the blade breaks in a certain angle (around 45 deg. on the weak spot a few inches behind the tip), the remaining pointed stump leaves broader/bigger traces behind than before, the broken blade also becomes somewhat sturdier.

I just mention this because I had several "aha experiences" during the course of my experiments that made me change some of my views, specially on the Tabram and Nichols cases.

That is why I do not rule out the possibility that ALL of Tabram's wounds were inflicted with one and the same weapon.

[Celesta]

Hi Michael & Mike,

Man, has this thread exploded since last night. You are quite right about the variety. I even saw one that looked like a dagger, and it had a handle like a dagger, but I recall that it was either a later model, possibly WWII, or it didn't have a date posted for it. I tried to find a good website that would show us the variety of knives and bayonets available at the time, but that turned out to be harder than I thought. Is there a site that displays them in a way that we can compare them? Dr. Killeen said the knife was a pen knife. I had the impression it was a case knife. I inherited a case knife from my father. It locks open. Is there a big difference between a pen knife and a case knife?

Best wishes,

C

[Mike Covell]

Here is a site showing victoriana including knives, have a look at some of the long slender beasties!!

http://search.rubylane.com/antiques/,id=42.html

[bolo]

As far as I know, Killeen referred to a knife with a blade the size of a pen knife, not necessarily to a pen knife itself.

I've seen 19th century pen knives and most of them looked too fragile to be used for stabbing.

[Fisherman]

Bolo writes:
"As far as I know, Killeen referred to a knife with a blade the size of a pen knife, not necessarily to a pen knife itself."

Halleluja, Bolo! That is pretty much the essence of the matter!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hi Glenn!

"Again, the whole idea that Tabram's wounds were inflicted in a controlled manner and not in a frenzied rage is one of the craziest notions I have ever come across in connection with the Ripper"

Try the hat on this way, Glenn:

Imagine a man who has a yearn to sink a knife into a woman. He speculates how it will feel; will it sink in like a hot knife in butter? Will there be crushing sounds? Will she be in pain - great pain?

Such things are more ofte than not on sadistīs minds. You will, I suspect, have no difficulty of admitting that.

Right! Letīs provide our sadist with a passed out woman, lying on a flight of stairs in a dark building. Luckily, he has a knife in his hand.

Can you see him resisting the opportunity? No?

So what does he do? He sinks the knife into her, right? And there is that sensation passing through him like a hot desert wind. He has finally fulfilled a fantasy that he has wanted to fulfill for sooo long a time.

Now, letīs suppose that she does not wake up from the stab. She just lies there, still unconscious, bleeding profusely from the wound he has just produced. So what is next move? Leave her lying there, and hope for another opportunity to come along? Or indulge...?

No crazy notion, Glenn, but for those who fail to see that ten, twenty, fifty stabs do not necessarily evince rage. Statistically, bodies found with 39 punctures in them are the result of blind rage, yes. But equally, statistically the major part of these bodies are found with defense wounds. Statistically, there has been a very loud fight included. Statistically, people who are killed by a frenzied knife-wielder do not have conclusive stabs to the heart added as a final coup de grace, WITH A DIFFERENT WEAPON!

More statistics; If you spread the skin of a human out on the floor, you will have around three square meters of skin to deal with. The cut on the abdomen ended up on a square decimetre on the lower abdomen. Such a decimetre constitutes one threehundreth part of the total area of skin. Thereīs statistics for you, Glenn!

Your take on it:
"There is nothing - I repeat nothing - that even indicates that this was an attempt in such direction. It was a cut - period."
...is a risky one, the way I see it. I have no problems whatsoever to recognize a progression in the line Tabram-Nichols-Chapman, and that progression is centered around cuts to the lower abdomen, seemingly produced by a weapon that according to the combination Killeen/Phillips was a knife with a long, narrow, thin blade. Not the most common of blades, I should think - more like a Liston knife or something along those lines.

Whether you like it or not - and I am aware that you dislike it very much - there are so many common denominators in Tabrams murder compared to those of Nichols, Chapman and Kelly, that her inclusion in the so called canon may well be quite justified.

The best, Glenn!

Fisherman

[Mitch Rowe]

Well..You know.. A frenzied rage is likely to cause alarm. But I dont if I can trust the so called witnesses. Maybe they did hear something and chose to avoid getting involved.
The Ripper seems like a methodical person at times. Other times he seems bent on destruction.
Theres just so many fors and againsts with Martha Tabram I dont think we will ever know for sure what happened.

I think that unless new evidence comes along Im just going to have to say I have no clue if Martha is a JTR victim. Might as well flip a coin.

[Carrotty Nell]

It would seem quite plausible to suggest that Martha was asleep on the landing when the killer came across her. It would make sense of some of the anomalous features of this case. We know it was usual for people to sleep on the landing. Imagine the killer coming across Martha lying there and stabbing her through the heart (the large wound) and killing her instantly. This would explain the lack of screams or other disturbance from the vicinity. The killer then inflicts the lesser wounds at his leisure and in perfect silence. He then makes his escape back down the stairs. This also avoids the rather unlikely scenario of a prostitute taking her client to the upper landing of an inhabited tenement block when an alleyway would be more convenient and less prone to unwelcome intrusion.

It was only Dr Killeen who believed the wounds were inflicted ante-mortem. But it is the theme of this thread I think to question this gentleman's professional competency, ergo a covenient and easy escape route also for this scenario.

This scenario strengthens the case for Martha having been killed by the same man who killed the canonicals. The murder is now identical to the canonicals in one way at least in which it was not previously: the mutilations are post mortem and the killer is a signature killer rather than a sadist intent on torture and pain of a living victim.

We are still left with the differences between Martha's wounds and the canonicals. But imagine if Martha was personal. Imagine if the killer had some personal grudge against her. That would explain why her wounds were different. But it was nevertheless this murder which served to push his mind over the edge and losing his reason and his control lead to the others in the series.