Why were the soldiers never identified?

[Howard Brown]

Glenners:

Hats off to an excellent presentation of the George Yard scenario.

I understand what you mean and yes, its wise to take into consideration that Barrett may have seen someone possibly connected to Tabram's murder.

Its been my view ( not that that matters ) that most Ripperologists believe in the Pearly Poll story for its connectivity to what Barrett described occuring either on Wentworth or George Yard ( The fact that they intersect at the north end went right over my damned head, Glenn) with his Lone Guardsman.

The thought occurs to me now, in 20-20 hindsight, that perhaps the Lone Guardsman went "first" with Tabram...and perhaps, if it WAS a matter of the second Guardsman being the Man In The Landing that that gent was concievably the killer.

I overlooked the possibility that the Guardsman on the street who Barrett saw may not have had any "difficulty" with Tabram and a possible liason the two engaged in...and that the second one did. "Difficulty" not being an indelicate choice of words, but you get my drift. I don't know why I overlooked it, but I think it had more to do with how little I thought of the whole Pearly Poll rigamarole.

Point to you, Glenn. Good going.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Howie,

Thanks for that.
I have to admit, though, that your idea that Pearly Poll might have gotten the idea about the soldiers from Pc barrett's story is something I myself have overlooked. I still maintain that I find it unlikely since there would be little reason for her to make it up, but I still find the point very creative. So hats off to that.

After all, PC Barrett was most likely the first one to ever mention a solider in the first place (as we know, there have been speculations that Killeen actually might have been 'influenced' by Barrett's mention of a soldier when he himself referred to a 'bayonet').
This, of course, also means that Barrett didn't get the idea from anyone else, and that there would be little reason for him to even metnion the solider if there wasn't anything peculiar about it.

This is why we must consider the possibility that he must have met the solider on a spot rather close to the murder site - there would be no reason for him to put two and two together if it happened further up on Wentworth Street, since he was the first one who ever mentioned a soldier and would have been influenced by no one else.
As far as I know, this meeting between Barrett and the solider occured at the corner of George Yard and Wentworth Street and this was probably why PC Barrett found it worthwhile to address.

Thanks again, Howie.

All the best

[Hellrider]

awesome what an interesting discussion we started here

I have two questions arising in my mind when I read your statements:

1) It's indeed plausible that Barrett was somehow hindered from getting a good look at the soldier (by darkness for example), so as not to be able to recognize him again. Another reason could be that Barrett was a police constable actually talked to lots of people every day/night, so he might have become "numb"..okay, not exactly numb, but I hope you get my point. He became indifferent to appearance and face of the people he talked to, unless maybe there was a real eye-catcher about them, such as an eye patch for example.

But then again, I find it awkward that Barrett remembers good conduct badges (which were of course not worn by all soldiers, but certainly by a considerable number..), but not the face of his "partner in talk". I mean, if I talk to somebody, I always look him straight in the eye for politeness's sake and, if it would be a strange in a dark street late at night, for reasons of my own safety. What is the man doing? Is he in any way taking action against me? That's something I won't see if I look at his uniform.

2) Second question would concern the beat that Thomas Barret walked that night. Let's see it that way: Martha and "Pearly Poll" separated to service their clients at about 1:45 in the morning. Now, if we assume (only in case) there were two soldiers with the girls, we have one of them, obviously finished with his girl, waiting for his comrades and beeing encountered by Barret at about 2 o'clock. 15 minutes have passed, which seems like a normal time for a quick job with a street prostitute. If we now assume that his comrade was with Martha and killed her, then we have the problem that Martha is supposed to have died at about 2:30. This means: 45 minutes since they left the other couple and half an hour for the other soldier to wait. I mean, they obviously had an appointment, and if your friend failed the appointment by more than half an hour, would you wait? In a dark, menacing location and under the risk of beeing repeatedly seen by policemen and inhabitants, thus becoming suspect? What I wanna say is that it's likely went looking out for his friend, possibly finding him in the act of murder and maybe helping out (would explain different weapons used on the body).

So, what do we know about Barrett's beat? Did he come through George Yard again prior to being called to the murder site and did he maybe see the soldiers again? Or, in other words, he did not (he would have mentioned that), but then the soldiers must have been seen leaving the location by anyone

[Howard Brown]

I have two questions arising in my mind when I read your statements:

1) It's indeed plausible that Barrett was somehow hindered from getting a good look at the soldier (by darkness for example), so as not to be able to recognize him again. Another reason could be that Barrett was a police constable actually talked to lots of people every day/night, so he might have become "numb"..okay, not exactly numb, but I hope you get my point. He became indifferent to appearance and face of the people he talked to, unless maybe there was a real eye-catcher about them, such as an eye patch for example.

Good observation, Hellrider, even if Barrett wasn't as observant as we would have liked him to be.




But then again, I find it awkward that Barrett remembers good conduct badges (which were of course not worn by all soldiers, but certainly by a considerable number..), but not the face of his "partner in talk". I mean, if I talk to somebody, I always look him straight in the eye for politeness's sake and, if it would be a strange in a dark street late at night, for reasons of my own safety. What is the man doing? Is he in any way taking action against me? That's something I won't see if I look at his uniform.

Hellrider...are you familiar with the expression,"The exception proves the rule..." ? If,as you mentioned, not all or most soldiers didn't wear conduct badges, one Guardsman who did ,either on the night in question or in retrospect, and considering the implications, its easy to understand why that particular feature would stand out, even more than his face. Everyone,no offense or joking around, has a face. Not everyone wore a conduct badge.




2) Second question would concern the beat that Thomas Barret walked that night. Let's see it that way: Martha and "Pearly Poll" separated to service their clients at about 1:45 in the morning. Now, if we assume (only in case) there were two soldiers with the girls, we have one of them, obviously finished with his girl, waiting for his comrades and beeing encountered by Barret at about 2 o'clock. 15 minutes have passed, which seems like a normal time for a quick job with a street prostitute. If we now assume that his comrade was with Martha and killed her, then we have the problem that Martha is supposed to have died at about 2:30. This means: 45 minutes since they left the other couple and half an hour for the other soldier to wait. I mean, they obviously had an appointment, and if your friend failed the appointment by more than half an hour, would you wait? In a dark, menacing location and under the risk of beeing repeatedly seen by policemen and inhabitants, thus becoming suspect? What I wanna say is that it's likely went looking out for his friend, possibly finding him in the act of murder and maybe helping out (would explain different weapons used on the body).

I would think,Hellrider, that the phrase, "coitus interruptus" would apply here. If you or I put ourselves in the position of the Guardsman whom Barrett saw and theoretically he had "finished" with Poll ( nice visual,eh?), then social etiquette would be in line that he waited at some distance from the entwined twosome of Guardsman # 2, the Man In The Landing & Tabram. Just my opinion based on what I would do in similar circumstances.




So, what do we know about Barrett's beat? Did he come through George Yard again prior to being called to the murder site and did he maybe see the soldiers again? Or, in other words, he did not (he would have mentioned that), but then the soldiers must have been seen leaving the location by anyone

That sounds like a call for Gavin Bromley, my friend....or Glenn Andersson.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Hellrider,

I don't possess the record of PC Barrett's beat - we need Gavin Bromley or Monty here! - but it is interesting to note that PC Barrett also was the first constable called to the murder scene by John Saunders Reeves, who found the body.

As for the identification, yes Barrett did manage to spot a number of details on the uniform but that doesn't really help that much if you're subjected to a line-up of soliders with the same uniform - I don't think this particular solider would be the only own in the regiment who wore a conduct badge. To distinguish a face among a uniformed crowd is something quite different.

All the best

[Celesta]

What bothers me is we only have the word of Thomas Barrett's soldier that there was another soldier, but the time problem that Hellrider brings up works in this guardsman's favor. Otherwise, why would the soldier be waiting around for so long? I like How's idea that this lone Guardsman went with Martha first. Something happened between the 2nd Guardsman and Martha, and he stabbed her. Why did he do it 39 times though? She must have really offended his manhood for that to happen. I wondered if they might not both have done her in, especially as one of the wounds was made with a bayonet-like instrument, unlike the other wounds, but then why would Guardsman # 1 continue to hang around. Unless he nipped in after Barrett left and gave Martha that anomalous stab wound. I know it's a stretch.

Basically, we have Thomas Barrett's soldier and that's it. I'm not ready to throw Mary Connelly's statement to the wind yet.

As far as the badge goes, it might have been very familiar to Barrett, and thus easily noted without much effort. The face was more of a challenge. According to Evans & Skinner, on about page 7, the men who were on leave that night were put into the identity parade. The man who killed Tabram may have been in that parade. Perhaps in a snafu of some sort, the man Barrett saw might not have been. However the simplest explanation is that he just didn't recognize him. I still have the sense that Connelly's presence confused the issue.

[Mike Covell]

What if soldier 1 was stabbing away like a nutter, then soldier 2 comes along and to show soldier 1 she is dead, stabs her with his bayonet!!

[Celesta]

What if soldier 1 was stabbing away like a nutter, then soldier 2 comes along and to show soldier 1 she is dead, stabs her with his bayonet!!

Or vice versa, Barrett's soldier came along while soldier two was stabbing away and bayoneted her. Why would either one of them have a bayonet? That's what I visualized, at least briefly. It would have been done after Barrett had moved on, (the bayoneting, I mean) then they both took off. There were no bloody prints found, yet Tabram was lying in a pool of blood. How do you stab somebody 39 times and not have some blood on you and drip it around, at least some.

[Howard Brown]

Celesta:

Let me condense some thoughts on this for you,if I may:

If Barrett's Lone Guardsman was waiting for the one with Tabram and didn't know what was going on on the landing...then we have the issue of this Lone Guardsman being faced with the awful reality of the one with Tabram coming back with blood somewhere on his person, a look of agitation and probably animated behavior.

It puts the Lone Guardsman in an awful position, since he definitely heard of what happened in all its gory details the next morning. He now has a decision to make.

He could keep his mouth shut...and possibly become considered an accomplice ( Remember, he already told Barrett he was "waiting for his mate" ) to the crime. He had no way of knowing whether Barrett would botch the identification in the days to come.

If he did know what was going on up on the landing or what was going to happen up on the landing, then the one who was on the landing killing Tabram was awfully stupid, since he is doing all the dirty work.

Does this make sense?

Because I don't believe that the Lone Guardsman would have remained silent about what the other guardsman was doing if indeed a guardsman had done anything....whether the Lone Guardsman knew beforehand or afterwards. I can't see how he didn't roll over on his friend,the man on the landing. Here's why:

He risks prison...he risks losing his career in the Guards...he risks putting the onus of shame on his family...he risks a lot of things that occur in situations like this.

This wasn't a case of a man punching a prostitute...beating a bar tab...getting flippant with some passersby....its capital murder in the LVP with the outfit the Lone Guardsman is associated with who will NOT back up or support an individual who "allows" one other Guardsman to cast shame on that organization. This is the basis of why I maintain that the two guardsmen theory is only speculation based on Barrett's sighting. Its good andnecessary to speculate on this possibility, because its really all we have,as Glenn has inferred in his previous posts. Yet, think about the very real and very serious consequences to the Lone Guardsman if he maintains silence...regardless of if he knew before...or after this tragic event.

Make sense?

[Hellrider]

But aren't soldiers known for their comradery through bad or worse? Imagine those guys were in war together, would they not cover up for eachother? Today, the justice of the state is everywhere and all offenders are liable under the law, but back then..the military was something like an isolated isle, so to say. They had their own jurisdiction, their own courts, their own punishments

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Yes, I think hellrider has a point there.
I truly believe that the Guardsmen would cover for each other and maybe even create a false alibi - maybe even in collaboration with the whole regiment. Soldiers, like policemen, have a very tight comradery that is well known, as well as their own sense of justice, wanting to deal with things internally without any interference from the ordinary civilian police.

All the best

[Howard Brown]

Hellrider:

Maybe in the army you and I would be in, but not in every circumstance. Soldiers are people first, soldiers second.

Policemen "roll over" or do the right thing against other policemen when they violate the rules many times too.

Again, we aren't talking about a case of stealing oranges from a costermonger,where the penalty would be minimal. We aren't talking about a case of one Guardsman just happening to be in a position where his fellow guardsman started a barfight and naturally, he will do his best to make it seem like a case of self defense.

39 stab wounds to a woman is quite a different story. All of a sudden the manmade bonds of unity and comradeship don't seem so strong in a case such as that do they? Especially if the Lone Guardsman had no clue as to what occurred until he was then implicated as being the "mate" of the killer.

Aren't you and Glenn forgetting that Barrett had seen the Lone Guardsman and that this gentleman had no idea that Barrett would be unable to identify him in an identity parade? After all, it was only a couple of days later...

[perrymason]

I think it should be remembered that Pearly Poll actually did pick out soldiers, but withdrew the id. She said the men she and Martha met were a private and a corporal, Tabram took the private...both with white bands around their caps, and one of the men she selected, both belonging to the Coldstream Guards from Wellington Barracks, had stripes on his uniform, but wasn't a corporal.

I dont know about you...but it seems to me that she should have had a better idea of what her man looked like other than just what his rank was on his sleeve.

I think its possible Poll got cold feet because they forced her to review the men directly, rather than discreetly, and all it might take is a second long steely glance at her from the guilty guardsman for her to fear for her own safety, if she goes through with the id.

She was reluctant...avoided the first arranged parade of soldiers, and yet the police still worked with her, re-scheduling the review. I think they felt she should be able to identify the soldier, and that he was the killer, so they used patience with her. Up until her refusal to id the man/men.

I think we may have a case of witness self preservation, but I also think she saw the man or men that day.

Which encourages me towards supposing that Martha did indeed fall to other hands than Jacks....because I think it highly unlikely we have a killer who does so in a uniform. Staining for one, potential witness issues for a second.

I think Jack blended into the scenery, not drew attention to himself. I think he could be a full room, and still be unnoticed.

Best regards all.

[Hellrider]

you have a good point there

maybe the soldier knew that the policeman had not gotten a good look at him, so he knew they would not be caught...but he can't have been convinced, can he?


Would being an accessory to a murder also have been punished with execution in VB?

[Howard Brown]

I think it should be remembered that Pearly Poll actually did pick out soldiers, but withdrew the id.-PM

Mike: She also picked out a man with an iron clad alibi.


I dont know about you...but it seems to me that she should have had a better idea of what her man looked like other than just what his rank was on his sleeve.-PM

Yes....for being with a man, most of which in a lighted atmosphere, 1 hour and 45 minutes, her selection of the wrong man speaks volumes.

I think its possible Poll got cold feet because they forced her to review the men directly, rather than discreetly, and all it might take is a second long steely glance at her from the guilty guardsman for her to fear for her own safety, if she goes through with the id.-PM

No offense,Mike, but she had no trouble selecting the wrong man.

I think we may have a case of witness self preservation, but I also think she saw the man or men that day.-PM

True Mike...its possible. But think of a reason for her to select the wrong man. Where does the case of witness self preservation fit in now?

maybe the soldier knew that the policeman had not gotten a good look at him, so he knew they would not be caught...Hellrider

HR...are we now assuming that the Guardsman averted the gaze of Barrett and that Barrett couldn't identify him later on????