Why were the soldiers never identified?

[Celesta]

Hi HR,

Barrett saw the Guardsman around 2 a.m. Where was the guardsman right after that? After Barrett walked off? Does there even have to be a second guardsman?

[Hellrider]

Very good observation Celesta...

let's say: the guardsman waits for his comrade, meets Barrett and tells him that he waits for his comrade but that one doesn't show up. So the guardsman decides to wander around and to kill the next prostitute he finds..

Don't wanna make fun of you, but that scenario is weird somehow...unless he met Martha somewhere in the vicinity of George Yard, took her up the stairs and then murdered her.

[Celesta]

It's not too weird. We have no idea what she was up to for an hour, or roughly an hour. The staircase was available for about that time. It's a possibility that she came along right after Barrett left. I know it's not a big possibility. What if he saw Martha go into the building with someone else, then when she came down, he lured her back up again. He punched her and then killed her.

Far-fetched, maybe.

[Hellrider]

Regarded from this point of view, it's indeed a possibility...one of so many in this case. We can't rule anything out

[YankeeSergeant]

Why weren't they identified

Sorry all: I've been absent with school for awhie and had to renew my membership. Anyway, There may be multiple reasons why the soldiers weren't identified.
Pearly Poll wouldn't want to lose custom. Of course if Martha got a good look we'll never know. I must admit it intrigues and puzzles me that Barrett couldn't identify them. Records would tell you who was on duty and if they were on authorized leave or furlough but not if they were out without a pass. There is the fact too that Martha may not have been killed by a soldier at all.
(In my novel about Jack the Ripper which is still in rough draft, I have her killer being a sailor she tries to rob unsuccessfully) I can see the soldier's mates covering for them and in the excitement barrett not being able to remember. Just ideas.

[Celesta]

Poll identified two soldiers, who supposedly had alibis. Yet she and Martha partied with the two soldiers, for a while, before they roamed off to do the deed. Is it likely that she would not have recognized them after spending time with them? She must not have been very adamant about her IDs of these guys.

[Hellrider]

if there ever were two soldiers...any credible witness statements?

It there were no two soldiers but only one with the girls, then the other one, who was seen by Barett, could have just arrived on the scene from somewhere else to pick up his comrade because they had an appointment or such.

[Celesta]

Hi HR,

Looks like we're still where we were! Were there 2 with the women, or not? We know there was one in the area because Barrett saw him.

[Hellrider]

well then let's just agree that Pearly Poll was just too drunk or devil-may-care in order to want or be able to look at what was above the soldiers' waists

[Celesta]

well then let's just agree that Pearly Poll was just too drunk or devil-may-care in order to want or be able to look at what was above the soldiers' waists

Yep, my thoughts perzactly! She was sodden.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Poll identified two soldiers, who supposedly had alibis. Yet she and Martha partied with the two soldiers, for a while, before they roamed off to do the deed. Is it likely that she would not have recognized them after spending time with them? She must not have been very adamant about her IDs of these guys.

Most likely she deliberately pointed out the wrong men because she was afraid of her own safety or because soldiers probably were her best clients (soliders usually could afford to take out the women on long bar hopping rounds).
She appears to have been a very reluctant witness to begin with, uneager to help out, so there is no reason to believe she actually intended to tell the truth or pick out the right guys.

All the best

[Celesta]

Most likely she deliberately pointed out the wrong men because she was afraid of her own safety or because soldiers probably were her best clients (soliders usually could afford to take out the women on long bar hopping rounds).
She appears to have been a very reluctant witness to begin with, uneager to help out, so there is no reason to believe she actually intended to tell the truth or pick out the right guys.

All the best

Hi Glenn,

All very true. It makes one wonder why she volunteered any information at all. Thanks.

Take care.

[Hellrider]

what doesn't cease to confound me is that Barrett seemingly looked VERY closely at the face of the soldier. He gave the following description:

"Pc. Barrett remembered a soldier he had seen in Wentworth Street at 2.00 a.m. He was a Grenadier, 22-26 years of age, 5ft 9 or 10 inches tall, fair complexioned with a small brown moustache turned up at the ends. He had no medals, but wore one good conduct badge on his tunic.-"

with a description like this, there can't be too many guards in one regiment which could have been the one, can there?

[YankeeSergeant]

I don't have stats on the size of British regiments for the period but if they are comparable to U.S. regiments, There would be 800 to 1000 authorized for full strength. given that in peacetime there is every likelyhood that the regiment was not full strength. There fore a good estimate would be 400-600 effectives not accounting for illness etc. There is a very good chance that would be a very good description of a fair portion of the regiment say 100 men. This would lead to the questions that follow.
1- Was the entire regiment garrisoned at the same place?
2 How many men inthe regiment held the good conduct medal at the time?
3- How many were authorized leave or a pass on the night in question?
4-If the regiment was not all garrisoned in one place which company or companies were garrisoned in London?

I think you'd have to look at those statistics and questions to narrow the field but peronbally I diascount Tabram's killer being a soldier. I can't comment on if she actually was with a soldier but Ithink it unlikely that her murderer was a soldier . PArtially a gut feeling and partially having spent enough time in service myself I know that even then the army (Both ours and Her majesty's kept a tightrein on their troops. Regards, Neil

[Wickerman]

.....PArtially a gut feeling and partially having spent enough time in service myself I know that even then the army (Both ours and Her majesty's kept a tightrein on their troops. Regards, Neil

Most of the interest focused on those stationed at the Tower.
But, on your point of a 'tight-rein' on HM troops, you might want to dig up some quotes from, I think, Henry Mayhew (London Labour and the London Poor, 1851), who toured the more destitute parts of London and provided eyewitness accounts and direct quotes from some of those he met.

Many an unfortunate (prostitute) would tell of those "damn sodger" who don't always pay for their pleasures but poke and stab the dear old gals to frighten them off.
You see back in the 19th century troops on leave were allowed to carry their bayonets out in public. And occasionally were prone to using them.

regards...