Ripper Victim?

[Ben]

Cheers, Fish!

I've got quite a few templates at the ready to be employed if necessary, but I'll add that one to the mix.

I mis-phrased myself evidently Ben, of course you can suggest that the killer went from obviously amateur status to seemingly semi-professional without intermediary steps

It's more of an inference than a suggestion, Mike. I think the most salient point in that serial killers don't start out on a semi-professional level. All crafts require practice, even the more grisly ones, and murder and mutilation is no different. Tabram would be the most obvious example of a possible "intermediary step" in this case.

What you cannot say is that there is any physical or circumstantial evidence in the case of Martha Tabrams death that indicates she was killed by the man with the specific agendas shown in perhaps 4 of his 5 attributed murders called the Canonicals.

I don't agree, I'm afraid.

I believe there's at least ample evidence for advacing the case that Tabram may have been an early - perhaps the earliest - murder of JTR at a time when his techniques were not yet fully honed and discovered.

You cannot say with any authority that her attack was done by one man. You cannot say with any authority that she was unconscious, or on the ground, when being stabbed.

Fair enough, but you can't say with any authority that the reverse was true in each case, either.

And she is thought by the Coroner of at least Mary Ann's Inquest to perhaps be by another hand than the one that killed Polly and Annie.

I don't disagree with that observation. Can't argue with "perhaps". On the other hand, Abberline, Anderson and Reid all believed that Tabram belonged in the series.

Best regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

Ben,

As your friend I submit this to you....you often disagree with opinion based on facts, and cite only your belief or some evidence that exists based on serial killer profiling as your defense.

Martha had 2 different wounds, its not only clearly stated its backed up by other opinions. Martha is not a Canonical Group member, insinuating that at least 2 of the top of the police food chain and medical staff did not see any evidence worthy of a speculated inclusion.

There is no documented fact that states all serial killers must have completely different and much cruder starts in their "professional life", or that frantic stabbing and excising organs are naturally compatible acts...one a huge leap lower on the skill sets required to complete the act initiated...in Marthas case, aside from possible robbery, all 39 stabs were part of a single goal... to murder her. There is nothing that indicates anything else....nor that the killer knew how to kill her quicker by slitting.

And murder is the least interesting aspect of quite possibly the next 3 victims consecutively...if Liz wasnt a Ripper victim....and there is no physical evidence to base that she was a "killer-interruptus" Ripper victim.

I dont mind that we disagree Ben...I do mind that you think Ted Bundy's interviews or David Berkowitzs' has anything close to factual value or relevance when assessing these cases....and that you seem to override the attending physicians comments citing specifically 2 weapons being used. You suggest its not uncommon for a killer to change mid-kill to another weapon, for use only once...I submit that would be extremely rare, and Im fairly sure unless its from a knife to a gun or the like...my guess is you may not find one example of a single murder episode where the solo "serial" killer uses one smaller knife dozens of times and another weapon that is also a knife...larger now...only once.

Unless you have a knife fight between a man and a soldier wearing a bayonet and/or dagger along with a smaller knife. And thats not serial crime....its just like Marthas death is, a standalone situation...a stabbing with 2 weapons involved that remains unattributed to a killer.

Best regards Ben.

[perrymason]

It is highly unlikely and not suggested within known evidence that the killer of Martha Tabram was a man who has no demonstrable knowledge of how to kill efficiently with a knife and exhibits great rage in his weapon usage, who then changes to one that many medical professionals felt showed some rough anatomical knowledge and some skill with knife use and controlled hand/knife co-ordination...in 3 weeks... without any intermediate steps at all.

There are none on record.



edited to add....the state of these studies have always been greatly, and in my opinion, negatively affected by the inclusion of victims that do match the majority of Canonical victims attacks or injuries.....I believe until they are removed, the killers actual profile will be obscured, as it would be by adding yet another victim with no proof.

Cheers.

[Jon Guy]

Martha is not a Canonical Group member, insinuating that at least 2 of the top of the police food chain and medical staff did not see any evidence worthy of a speculated inclusion.

The C5 list was compiled by Thomas Bond, he also though McKenzie was a Ripper job, but that happened eight months after he was asked to compile the list.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hello all,

Michael hits on something when he says 'great rage'. That does appear to be quite evident in the murder of Tabram. It was a very clumsy murder. We would expect his next murder to only slightly less clumsy. But is that what we get?

Wolf Vanderlinden and other authors have utilized the 'cuts' to Polly Nichols' abdomen as evidence of a 'transition' between the stabbing killer of Tabram and the cutting killer of Chapman and co. I believe this is completely wrong as the awkward cuts to Polly's stomach are indicitive of a someone trying to work his knife up under her loose stays...which were obviously not loose enough for his purposes. What we DON'T see in the Nichols murder is any evidence of rage. He did not lose his temper and start cutting away at her body. He quietly abandoned her, probably when he heard Cross approaching. In the following murder of Chapman, having learned his lesson, he cut through her clothes.

I think from this it's pretty clear that Nichols was the first woman he attempted to disembowel with her clothes on. Probably the first woman he attempted this on at all. But also it doesn't seem like a first murder. So, it is possible he killed Tabram, but the evidence strongly suggests two different personalities.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Tom

It’s interesting that you mention the clothing. Quite a barrier to anybody trying to get at the soft flesh underneath. In the Millwood attack Jack was going through clothing stabbing (because stabbing is the only effective way) at the lower Torso. This switched in the Tabram attack to largely upper Torso but still through clothing.

He than raided the skirt to Slash at the Abdomen 3’x 1’gash.

By the time he got to Nichols he’s learned to lift the skirts but you claim he’s still not perfected his technique?

Sounds like a natural progression from Stabber to Slasher to me learning, as he goes along.

He perfects at the Chapman murder and moves on to the face by Eddowes.

All best Pirate

[Ben]

As your friend I submit this to you....you often disagree with opinion based on facts

Not really, Mike.

If you argue that Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes were killed by the same person, I would agree with you. It would be an "opinion based on facts" an a highly laudable one. If you argue that the killer only killed those three and no others, I woul disagree with you. It would be an unsound opinion, based on speculation of the order that goes against history and what we've learned about other serial killers.

Martha is not a Canonical Group member

That doesn't mean anything to me. The "canon" is a modern contruct and has never reflected the majority of informed opinion, contemporary or modern.

insinuating that at least 2 of the top of the police food chain and medical staff did not see any evidence worthy of a speculated inclusion.

That doesn't mean anything either, since Macnaghten's views never reflected the majority of opinion, contemporary or modern. Abberline, Anderson and Reid were all involved in the case when the murders were being committed, unlike Macnagthen, and all three of them believed Tabram to have been a ripper victim. Bond didn't rule out Tabram. He simply opined that Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and Kelly were all murdered by the same person, an opinion which you don't even agree with yourself.

There is no documented fact that states all serial killers must have completely different and much cruder starts in their "professional life"

Not a documented fact, perhaps, but from the extensive evidence we've acquired over the course of a century from other serial cases, we learn that the majority are capable of much greater diversity than stabbing to slab 'n' slashing, especially when it comes to their earlier crimes. In a conspicuous minority of cases, you'll find that some killers are very consistent, but never as bizarrely and robotically so as he would need to have been if he only killed your three.

one a huge leap lower on the skill sets required to complete the act initiated

Not a huge leap at all, Mike, certainly not in the context of serial crime. As I've tried to explain before, killers rarely start off with a ready-made "skill set". They learn their skills as they progress with their murderous careers. This is why the experts are strongly inclined to consider other attacks that pre-date Nichols.

I dont mind that we disagree Ben...I do mind that you think Ted Bundy's interviews or David Berkowitzs' has anything close to factual value or relevance when assessing these cases

Well, I mind that you mind!

If we're simply theorizing without taking into account any knowledge gained from other serial cases, then we're really wasting out time. It's simply creative writing, with very little to back it up other than what we insist to be true. That would be valueless, as we'd be making pronouncements as to what serial killers would and wouldn't do on the basis of complete ignorance.

You suggest its not uncommon for a killer to change mid-kill to another weapon, for use only once...I submit that would be extremely rare

What's the problem? "Stab stab stab stab stab - nope, that doesn't do the job as well as I'd like. Try this for a coup de grace. That works better, I'll stick with it next time" Anything along those lines would consistute a perfectly plausible scenario, certainly no less so that your "two man holding her up for the entire duration of the attack" hypothesis. Again, I'm not remotely convinced that two weapons were used anyway.

I don't accept your observation about an intermediary step being required between Tabram and Nichols. The Zodiac needed no such step to come up with the idea of stabbing someone instead of shooting them (and we're talking about a very similar time-frame here), and that's one heck of a huge leap in contrast to the one presented as such (erroneously in my view) here.

Regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

A wound that is three inches long but only one inch deep ought to qualify as a cut in anyone's book.

It does in mine, Ben - albeit a short, shallow cut. Such are its dimensions that it's not even certain that it was intended to be a cut, either. After all, Killeen is only reported as having mentioned 39 stabs, not 38 stabs and one cut.

[Tom_Wescott]

Pirate,

Thanks for the feedback. It's a very long shot to suspect that Millwood had anything to do with the Ripper murders, or even the Tabram murder.

Ben and Sam, et al.

Would love to get your feedback on my above post.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

It’s interesting that you mention the clothing. Quite a barrier to anybody trying to get at the soft flesh underneath.

Tabram's skirt was lifted up, Jeff - there was nothing stopping him targeting her abdomen. Nothing at all.

Yet he rained blow after blow - the majority of the wounds - at just below chest level or above.

Sounds like a natural progression from Stabber to Slasher.

Jack was a cutter, not a slasher. His method of cutting - or "ripping" - involved sustained and controlled pressure on a knife, over a considerable distance, penetrating through several layers of flesh. Tabram's 1" deep wound would barely have penetrated the skin and subcutaneous fat.

[Tom_Wescott]

Tabram's skirt was lifted up, Jeff - there was nothing stopping him targeting her abdomen. Nothing at all.

The stays, dawg. The stays.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Sam Flynn]

Ben and Sam, et al.

Would love to get your feedback on my above post.

I agree with what you said, Tom - wholeheartedly. See my post before this one, where I mention the "sustained, controlled" use of the knife in the indisputable "Ripper" murders.

[robhouse]

Polly Nichols also had "tw[o] small stabs on private parts" - MEPO, Report of J. Spratling, Inspr., Aug 31, 1888

And these were also, as before, not mentioned in newspaper accounts

RH

[Sam Flynn]

The stays, dawg. The stays.

Was Tabram wearing stays, Tom? I can't recall reading that she was. Come to think of it, did they make stays in her size?

[Fisherman]

Tom Wescott writes:

"it is possible he killed Tabram, but the evidence strongly suggests two different personalities."

Ah! Now this is interesting! Is this a battle where I side with you, Tom, to do battle on Ben? Me oh my - what has the world come to?

Seriously, I very much agree that the two personalities that emerge if we compare Tabrams killer to Nichols´are different - too different to make a suggestion of these killers being one and the same a very viable one. But that only holds true if we accept that there was only the one killer, and that all the wounds were indeed intended as stabs.

You speak of Wolf Vanderlinden, and he did a thorough and interesting article on Tabram in Ripper Notes some time back. One of the things that stuck in my mind was his suggestion that the Tabram slaying could have been carried out by one of the tenants, who simply happened to pass by Tabram sleeping rough on the landing, and killed her - only to evolve into the Ripper later on. Sort of an opportunist scenario.

I don´t know if you have read my article in Ripperologist 97, but I offer something that is related to Wolfs suggestion - but with a twist. My version of the story goes like this:

Tabram takes a punter to George Yard, to do business. Something goes wrong, and the customer is enraged, draws his smallish blade, subdues her (probably knocking her on the head in the process) and stabs her all over the upper body as she falls to the ground. He then leaves her for dead, and flees the scene.

This all goes down in a building where the landings open up onto galleries on the back, meaning that if there was somebody in that block that particular night, then he could have seen what happened. And there was; Jack.
He is a man with a long suppressed urge to open a woman up and eviscerate, but he has not yet succumbed to this urge. But the opportunity offered to him with Tabram lying dead (or so he thinks) on that landing makes him finally cross the line, and he produces his dagger, turns Tabram on her back, lifts her skirts and starts to cut her in the lower abdomen (where there was only the one wound - interestingly enough a cut), only to realize that she is NOT dead. She makes some sort of sound, moans or moves or something, interrupting him in the process of cutting. And he panicks, realizing that he is on a landing where people may open their doors any second to find out what the commotion going on on the landing is. He decides to run for it, but he cannot afford to take the risk that Tabram stays alive and spills the beans about him. Therefore, before he scuttles off, he stabs her point-blank through the heart.

This version takes care of a number of things:
Why two weapons were used. Why two killers did not amount to a loud killing. Why there was an unfocused flurry of stabs - and two different kinds of wounds. Why there suddenly was an interest in the lower body of Tabram, in spite of the fact that all other stabs seem to have gone into her upper body. Why he, as he went for his next victim, had decided to start out by silencing her from the outset, cutting off her windpipe and her main arteries, ensuring the death and silence he had not enjoyed with Tabram.

The fact that it happened in George Yard, combined with our knowledge that Joe Fleming moved to the adjacent Victoria Home that August, of course spices things up.

Any thoughts on this, Tom?

The best,
Fisherman