Ripper Victim?

[harry]

Another reference to Tabram as a JTR victim.
London July 17 1889. This despatch describes the murder of Alice McKenzie,known to some as Kelly,as a Ripper murder.It goes on,he(jtr)is also guilty of the following crimes.Christmas week 1887 an unknown woman found murdered near Osborne and Wentworth streets,Whitechapel.Martha Turner(tabram?)George yard building,39 stab wounds.It then names Nicholls,Chapman,Stride,Eddowes and Kelly.

[Nothing to see]

Nothing to see writes:

"No evidence from Killeen or anyone who was there and saw her to smack you in the face and go 'Oh, this must be Jack'."

When Killeen tended to Tabram, Jack had not yet been officially born, NTS.

"I include Stride and I'm not an expert but she was one of Jack's IMO."

Many people are of the same meaning, NTS - but not me. I think one must have a list of priorities to work by, and at the very top of that list of mine, it says that any victim that evinces an interest on their killers behalf in the lower abdominal area is a more likely candidate to be Jacks than those who do not. To have your neck cut was a far more common thing than it was to have your belly opened (there were THREE women who had their necks cut that night, NTS, and two of them had it done to the very bone. Not Stride, though!), and there is nothing per se that urges us to believe that the Rippers neck-cutting was anything but a practicality.

"Jack ... didn't only stab."

Nor did the man who wounded Tabram to her lower abdomen, NTS. By appearances, he cut!

The best,
Fisherman

Man, you've lost me. The victims wanted Jack to stab them in their abdomens? Evinces an interest means show an interest in.

[Fisherman]

NTS writes:

"Man, you've lost me."

So let´s find you again, shall we?

"The victims wanted Jack to stab them in their abdomens? Evinces an interest means show an interest in."

Yep. And the only wound that could be described as one that probably sat on the lower abdomen was one inch deep and three inches wide. That, NTS, is not what is generally described as a stab. It was a cut.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Aaah, NTS - NOW I see what you are aiming at. But I do write about an interest "on their killers behalf", don´t I?

And in any case, whenever I take a wrong turn semantically, I can/will always blame it on English not being my native tongue. I´m a Swede, och därför får du hålla till godo med de kunskaper i brittiska språket jag har.

There you go!

The best,
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

Aaah, NTS - NOW I see what you are aiming at. But I do write about an interest "on their killers behalf", don´t I?

And in any case, whenever I take a wrong turn semantically, I can/will always blame it on English not being my native tongue. I´m a Swede, och därför får du hålla till godo med de kunskaper i brittiska språket jag har.

There you go!

The best,
Fisherman

Nope, FM, that fish don't swim. English as a second language absolves you?
Nice try. I have no idea what you've said but I'm sure it means "NTS,You are absolutely correct in all your responses. What a pity you don't try to learn Swedish."

[Fisherman]

"I have no idea what you've said"

Spot on, NTS!

The best,
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

In English, man, Tabram was not a Jack get. Just don't see any evidence that would make me change my mind.

[Fisherman]

Be my guest, NTS! I´m perfectly satisfied that she may well have been Jack´s though.
In English.
AND Swedish!

The best,
Fisherman

[Chava]

Fisherman, you make a great point. The Ripper had not happened and didn't until the Chapman kill. Nicholls was a poor woman who had been murdered, not a Ripper victim, so, although attention was paid to her wounds and the weapon, no one was thinking 'this guy might do it again'. Same like Tabram. She was a poor woman who had been murdered, probably by a squaddie. And she may well have been. But no one knew what was coming, and no one knew what to look for. By the time the Ripper came into existence in September, Tabram and Nicholls were long gone and buried. Whatever further evidence they could give was buried as well.

I don't think we have any evidence to rule out Tabram beyond the 'cutting/ripping' thing. And that is extremely important evidence. But if the Wilson attack is linked at all, the guy who attacked her stabbed her rather than ripped her.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Chava

The authorities were aware of a "series" at the time of the Nichols murder.

At the Nichols inquest, both the Tabram and Chapman murders were considered by the Coroner, and attending the inquest was Abberline on his return to Whitechapel from Scotland Yard to take charge of the case(s)

[Fisherman]

Jon Guy is - of course! - correct; Nichols was the starting point for the conception of a murder series, although Chapman was the one who added absolute certainty to it.

As Tabram died, however, Killeen would have had no idea of the need for looking after vital clues, connecting her with a series of killings.

The best,
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

Fisherman, you make a great point. The Ripper had not happened and didn't until the Chapman kill. Nicholls was a poor woman who had been murdered, not a Ripper victim, so, although attention was paid to her wounds and the weapon, no one was thinking 'this guy might do it again'. Same like Tabram. She was a poor woman who had been murdered, probably by a squaddie. And she may well have been. But no one knew what was coming, and no one knew what to look for. By the time the Ripper came into existence in September, Tabram and Nicholls were long gone and buried. Whatever further evidence they could give was buried as well.

I don't think we have any evidence to rule out Tabram beyond the 'cutting/ripping' thing. And that is extremely important evidence. But if the Wilson attack is linked at all, the guy who attacked her stabbed her rather than ripped her.

OK. So Jack started with Chapman? What do you find that doesn't link her with Nicholls?

[Jon Guy]

Nichols was the starting point for the conception of a murder series, although Chapman was the one who added absolute certainty to it.

As Tabram died, however, Killeen would have had no idea of the need for looking after vital clues, connecting her with a series of killings.

Hello my friend,

I `d agree with that.

Perhaps it is also an insight into the thoughts of the area Police Surgeon Dr Phillips, that Killeen was not consulted later in the series, as the only medic to see Tabram.

[Chava]

OK. So Jack started with Chapman? What do you find that doesn't link her with Nicholls?

I am absolutely certain that Nicholls was killed by the Ripper. However I assumed that, since she was the first of the 'signature' kills, no one could know there would be others until Chapman was killed in the same way. But, as Jon Guy points out, the police did see a possible link between Tabram and Nicholls. And I'm interested to know that the police did come back to Killeen. So there had to be at least the possibility of Tabram being a Ripper victim.

By the way, thank you, Jon, for that info. I didn't know that.

[Jon Guy]

By the way, thank you, Jon, for that info. I didn't know that.

No problem, mate.

If you are interested,the whole of the Coroners summing up can be found on the menu on the left under victims , then click on Polly and scroll down to the list at the bottom where you can see Polly Nichols inquest, and look at the last paragraph.

Hope this is of interest, Chava