Ripper Victim?

[Nothing to see]

That's OK. We both agree that Jack wasn't altruistic. We both agree 2 weapons and 2 men killed Tabram.

Like I said, I enjoy reading your posts.

[Jeff Leahy]

Hi Fish

I’m not left with any obstacles in my mind.

1. There only ever was one knife. Killean was simply mistaken. The cuts going though different layers of clothing would appear different once the body was stripped. All we have is the use of the knife in different ways for practical purpose. When going though clothing the attacker STBBED. Following the Frenzy he raised the skirt and SLASHED. This gave the illusion of different knives, that’s all.
2. The knife wound to the heart was again the same knife being used differently. The blade becoming stuck in he sternum bones and the attacker having to push the blade in and out.
3. Having stabbed in a frenzy the killer raised the skirt and cut after the stab to the heart it was experimental and a revelation. A jack learning curve.

I see nothing that suggests anything other than One knife, one man and it being Jack. That’s my point.

As for the odds, I don’t have a counter argument, what you suggest is not impossible, I’m simply saying it seems unlikely that Jack just happened to be waiting about. Very unlikely. Especially when we have NO autopsy report and Swanson suggests a cut throat…It seems more likely to me that information was held back and Killean made a mistake about the need for two knives. He didn’t allow for the clothing.

All best and thanks for your thoughts and comments guys

Pirate

[Fisherman]

Jeff writes:

"I see nothing that suggests anything other than One knife"

I do: Killeens report. A report fashioned by a medico, and very emphatically stating two blades, is not something to take lightly.

Tom Wescott, among others, have thrown forward the suggestion that wiggling the blade after having stabbed through the sternum could lie behind a misconception on Killeens behalf. I think it holds no more water that that punctured sternum would - to begin with, although a knife may get jammed in bone, it is a question of millimetres to wiggle it loose.
Moreover, Killeen tells us that the two blades do not correspond. That means that he was able to read what kind of blades they were, and of course a stab through bone may provide a very clear image of the structure of a blade.

Once again, if there was some major wiggling included, then the hole through the sternum would have been a mess, and if so, Killeen would have realized that he could not estimate the blade by what he saw.
Furthermore, there was actually something available to him that very clearly and effectively would show whether the blade had been wiggled or not, wasn´t there? The heart, Jeff! If the blade had been wiggled and/or rotated, then the hole in the heart would have born witness to that. He had a gool look, remember: "the heart was rather fatty, and was penetrated in one place".
Since nothing of any enlarged hole in the heart is said, I suggest that Killeen was dealing with a very exact hole through both breast-plate and heart - and therefore the conclusion that two blades were used becomed inevitable. He had every reason to be very adamant about his finds, and to disregard it would be to disregard the single most important piece of evidence belonging to the Tabram investigation.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

Killeen is the only source there is for how Tabram died. He says that there were 2 different weapons used. You can't discount him.

You both think Jack killed her but you come at it from different angles.

I don't think Jack had anything to do with her murder but I agree with both of you on different parts of your theories.

Interesting, don't you think?

[Jeff Leahy]

Thats fair enough Fish. But even if you suggest two blades were used, it doen’t necessarily imply two people did the attack. The clothing still makes a considerable barrier. If the killer has two knives surely he has a reason to take out a second and use it in a different way. After all is there not some suggestion that more than one instrument was used at the Kelly murder?

I admit its strange why the killer would start with a smaller knife and swap. But no-more strange than one person sitting back a waiting while another stabs 38 times.

I still think it more likely that Killean was mistaken and information held back.

Especially as we have NO autopsy report.

Pirate

[Fisherman]

Jeff writes:
"I admit its strange why the killer would start with a smaller knife and swap. But no-more strange than one person sitting back a waiting while another stabs 38 times."

37 times, Jeff! And give it some thought: IF our boy was present in the block and caught wind of what was happening - what would he do? Try to stop the stabber? Scamper up to the landing and have a go in his company? Run away - and not take advantage of the opportunity offered? To my mind, if we accept that he was there and saw it go down, then he did exactly what I would have expected him to.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

NTS writes:

"I don't think Jack had anything to do with her murder but I agree with both of you on different parts of your theories.
Interesting, don't you think?"

That´s the way it goes, NTS - you buy some and you sell some, and some you won´t touch. And given the strange facts and inconsistencies involved in the Tabram murder, you will get a wide variety of interpretations. And there is nothing you can do about it but to go with your own convictions and hunches and see if they fit the evidence.

The best, my friend!
Fisherman

[Ben]

Hi Nts,

Again I will say. If Jack hadn't started 3 weeks after Tabram no-one would link the murders. If Tabram was killed in another town Jack wouldn't be linked to the murders.

Isn't that a bit of a circular argument? "If Jack hadn't stated 3 weeks after Tabram..."? But if Jack started murdering with Tabram, we need only note an obvious consistency in terms of time, location, victimology, weapon type and other factors. The fact that they all did match is a telling indicator than the same inidivual was responsible.

Nicholl's murderer choke/strangle throat slash, then the ripping with one weapon. Tabram stabbed. No organs taken.

But history, experience and every single expert on the topic informs us unequivocally that none of those changes are remotely sufficient for chalking the murders up to different perpetrators. In fact, history is littered with cautionary tales against fine-tuning a serial killer's methods too much. The ripping/stabbing distinction is just painfully irrelevant, I'm afraid. I can't enforce that more emphatically. Most serial killers are capable of much greater diversity than that, often completely changing the weapon, victim type etc, despite the fact that they're equally capable of great consistency.

In any case, Jack was perfectly capable of "stabbing" some of his later victims. Tabram was, as Fisherman observes, the perfect predecessor to Nichols.

Best regards,
Ben

[Shelley]

The frustration may have made the attack even more mindless than it would have been. So angry he just stabs and does not stop to think of an easier way.

CLK,
I would like to point out that this is a different method applied in stabbing Tabram, to that of cutting on Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes, therefore with the different style, a different Mind and different MO in terms of style of the killing. It is possible that a blow to Tabram's head could have been a means to her falling to the floor, then stabbing administered, or she could have slid a little with the blow to the head, but after some stabbing she was sliding downwards, so then some more stabbing was when she was on the floor, the rest showing her position of an open & powerless position and her legs apart to suggest intercourse took place could well be a joke on the behalf of the killer, i have no doubts that she was positioned to a certain extent when Tabram was found in the pitiful state, lying in a pool of blood.
Also the punctures to her lungs would have ensured death, even without the heart being wounded itself. Also i'll take the opportunity to say, that Tabram was not wearing a corset ( bodice), However Chapman & Eddowes did ( infact Chapman was wearing 2 bodices at the time of her killing). Also it is correct that a prostitute would not go down on her back, they stood upright or bent over and lifted thier skirts from behind. Also Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes were part-time prostitutes, not full-time professionals.Also Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes did not recieve a blow to the head either ( Chapman's bruise on her temple was caused by a fight with a woman over a piece of soap, i think the woman was called Eliza Cooper).

[Shelley]

NTS asks:

"Which was the first cut on Tabram? I'd think the one that pierced her heart "

Nope. That would have killed her, and Killeen tells us that she lived throughout the stabbing, as evinced by the amounts of blood. The stab to the heart was the LAST stab.

The best,
Fisherman

Fisherman,
Sorry i have to correct you there, stabbing and punctured lungs will cause death, not neccessarily the heart, it is only a means to that the Killer of Tabram wouldn't have known puncturing the lungs would have brought death, but wounding the heart would. But having said that, we do not really know what the killer knew, he may or may not have known that punctured lungs can kill. It is the evident sign of a pool of blood that the killer had not stabbed the heart ( as blood was still pumping ) first.
Also the blow to the head could have subdued her, but also a couple of stabs to her neck would also have done that as well, with the shock of the attack.

[Shelley]

Once again,

I'll mention that ' Victimology ' does not apply to part-time prostitues, within the bands of prositution ( soliciting). Also Bodices and that line of argument does not hold up from the stabbing to cutting theory. The Mo & signatures are different to that of Tabram & Nicholls. Cutting and stabbing are different styles and different minded killers. Victimology only applies when you have victims from residential areas mixed with those from the bands of prostitution. Also the killer who stabbed at Tabrams lungs could also be the killer, if a 2 weapons and 2 assailants line of argument senario is also used.

[Ben]

The Mo & signatures are different to that of Tabram & Nicholls. Cutting and stabbing are different styles and different minded killers.

Too bad all the real experts on the topic of serial crime say otherwise.

Any insistence to the contrary that isn't based on a remotely comparable background and level of experience is regrettably worthless.

[Jeff Leahy]

Once again,

I'll mention that ' Victimology ' does not apply to part-time prostitues, within the bands of prositution ( soliciting). Also Bodices and that line of argument does not hold up from the stabbing to cutting theory. The Mo & signatures are different to that of Tabram & Nicholls. Cutting and stabbing are different styles and different minded killers. Victimology only applies when you have victims from residential areas mixed with those from the bands of prostitution. Also the killer who stabbed at Tabrams lungs could also be the killer, if a 2 weapons and 2 assailants line of argument senario is also used.

Your still missing the point that Martha was a bag lady. She had on everything she owned. SLASHING at her rib cage or chest would have been next to useless. The only effective way to pearce her clothing would have been to use a knife in a stabbing motion, braking the clothes with the point of the blade...

The fact that he appears to have lifted the skirt and used the knife in a SLASHING motion at the end dosnt change the fact that Jack was working to necessity and circumstance. NOT to a fixed way of using a knife.

Pirate

[Shelley]

Your still missing the point that Martha was a bag lady. She had on everything she owned. SLASHING at her rib cage or chest would have been next to useless. The only effective way to pearce her clothing would have been to use a knife in a stabbing motion, braking the clothes with the point of the blade...

The fact that he appears to have lifted the skirt and used the knife in a SLASHING motion at the end dosnt change the fact that Jack was working to necessity and circumstance. NOT to a fixed way of using a knife.

Pirate

Pirate,
In the list of possessions as to what they are wearing, Tabram does not have a listing of Corset or bodice ( Bodice=corset), in MO & Signature it only refers in the area of clothing, if items were left or removed.
Keppel who some refer to as an expert and included Tabram, made a mistake in only briefing an outline of the JTR victims, heck he even includes Kelly, Tabram was removed by other experts in the field long ago as a possible ripper victim, many experts are against Keppel in his brief outline & mistake in including Tabram as a ripper victim. Also Eddowes had with her everything she owned and she had more layers of clothing than Tabram. By the time Nicholls was murdered, the killer had already developed a know how of not removing her clothing, but still able to mutilate by cutting. It isn't i that is missing the point here. Also this is why Tabram is not in the canocial 5 and hasn't been for many years. Also no throat-cutting on Tabram.

[Ben]

Keppel who some refer to as an expert and included Tabram, made a mistake in only briefing an outline of the JTR victims, heck he even includes Kelly

Keppel is an expert on serial crime, and you mention his inclusion of Kelly as though it were a bad thing, despite the fact that no other expert in serial crime has argued for her exclusion either - the total reverse, in fact.

Tabram was removed by other experts in the field long ago as a possible ripper victim, many experts are against Keppel in his brief outline & mistake in including Tabram as a ripper victim.

Gosh, this is news to me.

Which experts in serial crime have ever argued for Tabram's removal as a "possible victim"? I strongly suspect you're just inventing things now.

Also this is why Tabram is not in the canocial 5 and hasn't been for many years.

Completely meaningless, considering that the "canonical 5" is a modern construct. The majority of contemporary investigative personell included her, and modern knowledge has vindicated their decision.