Ripper Victim?

[CLK]

Could The Killer have been disturbed?

This may sound silly.

At 3:30 am when Alfred Crow passed the first floor landing and saw Tabram's body lying there,was her killer there too? After he was finished stabbing her he starts the wound at the lower abdomen when he hears Crow walking up the stairs. The killer panics and lies down beside her body or goes up the steps himself and hides somewhere until Crow passes. The killer is spooked so rushes off into the night.

It depends on where her body was lying on the landing though. It was just a thought that came into my head but I am happy to accept the rip was an accident but I do wonder.

[Sam Flynn]

This may sound silly.

At 3:30 am when Alfred Crow passed the first floor landing and saw Tabram's body lying there,was her killer there too? After he was finished stabbing her he starts the wound at the lower abdomen when he hears Crow walking up the stairs.

Not silly, CLK. However, are we really to believe the sequence of events went like this?

stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-cut... drat!

(Count 'em )

[CLK]

You never know. He could have been disturbed and then made the rip so the sequence of events went like:

stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab-stab- drat!...Cut

Ha ha Sorry!

[Sam Flynn]

...or any permutation in between, CLK! However, when you look at the (possible) cut in the context of all those "stabs", it says it all, really.

For some reason, the vision of bunch of vikings, sitting around a café table and singing a chorus, keeps popping into my head

[Jeff Leahy]

Re Jeff's thoughtful point on not being able to "rip" effectively through clothing... Tabram's killer lifted up her skirts, but still didn't bother ripping her; neither did he slash her (bare) throat.

Clearly, this guy was intent on stabbing, almost to the exclusion of anything else, and his focus was emphatically on the upper half of the body. This despite the fact that Tabram's belly was exposed, and quite possibly remained exposed throughout his onslaught on her neck, chest and stomach.

Did he lift up her skirts?

And when did he lift up her skirts? Before or after the stabs to the body?

And surely he had NO chioce but to stab at the body as Tabram was wearing several layers of clothing that would have deflected any SLASHING motions.

In short Slashing at Tabrams upper half through clothing would have been next to impossible...

So if Jack did carry out the attack on Martha Tabram he simply would have had no chioce but to STAB rather than SLASH.

OK perhaps he lifted the skirts for a final slash....

But until I see this murder reconstructed through the appropriate clothing, and for some kind of proof that this couldn't have been committed by Jack, well I'll be wandling behind a peeking virdict...

Pirate

But I don't like Spam http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anwy2MPT5RE

[CLK]

I agree with you completely. My minds open.

[Sam Flynn]

Did he lift up her skirts?

She was found on her back with her legs apart and lower abdomen exposed, Jeff.

Slashing at Tabrams upper half through clothing would have been next to impossible... So if Jack did carry out the attack on Martha Tabram he simply would have had no chioce but to STAB rather than SLASH.

It doesn't really matter when he exposed the abdomen - Jack the Ripper had precisely the same decisions to make in subsequent murders, and he chose to major on cutting, not stabbing. He also chose to cut his victims' bare throats - severely - and without stabbing their throats once, yet Tabram's bare throat was stabbed nine times.

Tabram was wearing several layers of clothing that would have deflected any SLASHING motions.

So were Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes... but it didn't stop Jack exposing their abdomens and ripping them open.

OK perhaps he lifted the skirts for a final slash....

He may have, Jeff. If so, he only managed a cut 3" long and 1" deep. Not much of a slash, by any standards. Indeed, that could hardly be called "a start", compared to what was seen in Buck's Row within a mere 3 weeks of Tabram's death.

[Jeff Leahy]

PS Killean testemony is next to useless unless we know whether or not he examined the body naked or in the clothes she was attacked in...

Reminds me of an episode of UFO when I was a kid..Straker got a camera to follow a UFO back to its planet and photograph the alien base, but when the photos were developed the magnification button failed. Straker refused to believe that he wasn't looking at Alien cities until it was pionted out he was actually looking at a sexy young ladies leg..? I like that about UFO, quite sexist...

Without an autopsy report and knowing what Killean was looking at..well we know nothing...was Martha Tabram wearing a whale boned corset?

It would make a hell of a difference to those stab marks.

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

She was found on her back with her legs apart and lower abdomen exposed, Jeff.It doesn't really matter when he exposed the abdomen - Jack the Ripper had precisely the same decisions to make in subsequent murders, and he chose to major on cutting, not stabbing. He also chose to cut his victims' bare throats - severely - and without stabbing their throats once, yet Tabram's bare throat was stabbed nine times.So were Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes... but it didn't stop Jack exposing their abdomens and ripping them open. He may have, Jeff. If so, he only managed a cut 3" long and 1" deep. Not much of a slash, by any standards. Indeed, that could hardly be called "a start", compared to what was seen in Buck's Row within a mere 3 weeks of Tabram's death.

I'm sorry Sam but your viewing this attack out of sequence.

The only attacks up to this piont that may have been ripper attacks were Millwood and Wilson. Both Attacks made through clothing..

The attack on Martha was clearly made to the body and thus , through clothing. If jack is starting to learn he learns that stabbing through clothing is next to useless,,,he also discovers that by lifting the clothing he can gain easy SLASHING..

Thus in the attacks following Martha Tabram Jack changes his MO out of necessity...

He strangles, cuts throat and lifts skirts...

It may seem obvious to you but Jack had to learn this. And he did so by attacking Tabram.

Pirate

PS Its not the only thing Jack learns. He also learns about blood flow...must have been lots of blood at the Tabram murder.

[Sam Flynn]

was Martha Tabram wearing a whale boned corset?

If her upper garments were that daunting, Jeff, wouldn't His Nibs have been forced to prod Martha elsewhere? He didn't, though - he stabbed the hell out of her upper abdomen, chest and neck.

Corset or not, you can bet that Tabram wasn't wearing armour around her lower abdomen - which might, at least, have excused his not having had more of a go at her nether regions - which makes it all the more baffling why this would-be "Jack" caused such little damage while he was down there.

[Shelley]

This may sound silly.

At 3:30 am when Alfred Crow passed the first floor landing and saw Tabram's body lying there,was her killer there too? After he was finished stabbing her he starts the wound at the lower abdomen when he hears Crow walking up the stairs. The killer panics and lies down beside her body or goes up the steps himself and hides somewhere until Crow passes. The killer is spooked so rushes off into the night.

It depends on where her body was lying on the landing though. It was just a thought that came into my head but I am happy to accept the rip was an accident but I do wonder.

CLK,
Highly unlikely, after delivering stabs like that, it would be impossible if said killer crouched down besides her to hide, he would have been panting like a dog after chasing a cat. In the dark it would be highly unlikely to hide away.To quickly move away and hide & not get spotted, like i said heart racing included with the fear of not getting caught would increase panting that he already had after administering an attack such as that. The Killer of Tabram was nowhere in sight, he was lucky and came unstuck not being detected.

[Jeff Leahy]

If her upper garments were that daunting, Jeff, wouldn't His Nibs have been forced to prod Martha elsewhere? He didn't, though - he stabbed the hell out of her upper abdomen, chest and neck.

Corset or not, you can bet that Tabram wasn't wearing armour around her lower abdomen - which might, at least, have excused his not having had more of a go at her nether regions - which makes it all the more baffling why this would-be "Jack" caused such little damage while he was down there.

No I disagree. You have to take the attack in sequence. a young Jack that has not perfected his MO..

He has her alone, he strangles her. He takes out his knife and starts to cut...but this woman is wearing everything she owns. She has more protection than a Mogal warrior. He is frustrated. He slashes to no effect, his blade making no empression against the tough material. So he changes the way he uses the knife STABBING and STABBING and STABBING.

But even so the knife only penetrates two or three inches into the layers of material. So he tears at the fabric..now his knife can penetrate.

Then he speads her legs raises her skirt and slashes..

It is but one small step for Jack the Ripper, but he has finally gotten there..

from now on things will be different...

Today necessity made jack a STABBER..Tomorrow he can SLASH the world

P x

Remember that Martha is the first and she is the only victim attacked through her clothing. we have no autopsie or reference to her clothing or cuts made to clothing that did not penetrate the body....Killean examin's only the naked body. so i'm not saying he's wrong. Just that we are missing the most important information...

[Shelley]

Pirate Jack Did he lift up her skirts?

OK perhaps he lifted the skirts for a final slash....

The Killer may not have lifted up Martha's skirts, if Martha was standing up she could have slid, skirts could have been lifted by accident and then he let her down ( with apparent appearance of lifted skirt once she was on the ground).

Or if Martha was placed on the floor during the stabbings, the knife handle could have got caught whilst going up again taking the skirt with it.

[Jeff Leahy]

However you view this Shelley the majority of the Stabs are to the upper part of the body wear the victim is well protected by Victorian corset...

In the subsequent attacks Jack transfers his attention to the soft areas by cutting throats and lifting skirts...his slashing works here

It does NOT work against Tabram, hence the STABS

Pirate

[CLK]

No I disagree. You have to take the attack in sequence. a young Jack that has not perfected his MO..

He has her alone, he strangles her. He takes out his knife and starts to cut...but this woman is wearing everything she owns. She has more protection than a Mogal warrior. He is frustrated. He slashes to no effect, his blade making no empression against the tough material. So he changes the way he uses the knife STABBING and STABBING and STABBING.

But even so the knife only penetrates two or three inches into the layers of material. So he tears at the fabric..now his knife can penetrate.

Then he speads her legs raises her skirt and slashes..

It is but one small step for Jack the Ripper, but he has finally gotten there..

from now on things will be different...

Today necessity made jack a STABBER..Tomorrow he can SLASH the world

P x

Remember that Martha is the first and she is the only victim attacked through her clothing. we have no autopsie or reference to her clothing or cuts made to clothing that did not penetrate the body....Killean examin's only the naked body. so i'm not saying he's wrong. Just that we are missing the most important information...

The frustration may have made the attack even more mindless than it would have been. So angry he just stabs and does not stop to think of an easier way.