Ripper Victim?

[Fisherman]

Ben writes:

"..."additions" borne out of practice. For all we know, organ-pinching and deep throat cuts could easily have belonged in the latter catergory."

Exactly, Ben - although I think that the organ-pinching is a bit easier to tie to his allover actions; to see the opening up of the women as a logical predecessor to taking out organs remains a compelling suggestion. That does not rule out the possibility you put forward, though.
As for th throat-cutting, I second you all the way - there is very good reason to see that as a practical element more than anything else - and the depth of the cutting to the neck does in no way have to be driven by any other wish than that of silencing and killing, for reasons Iave already outlined on this thread.

The best,
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

From the official police files. Inspector Reid report Aug 16 - Pearly Poll said she and Martha were with two soldiers. She went up Angel Court with the corporal, and Martha went up George Yard with the private.

PC Barrett reports talking to a soldier at the end of George yard who was waiting for his mate. You would think that would be the corporal, waiting on the private who went up George Yard with Martha, but NO Barrett says he spoke to a private.

Would anyone care to comment on the discrepancy?

Roy

Roy,

This has been commented on several times before, and the simple answer is that the soldiers referred to by Pearly Poll most likely is not the same ones that PC Barrett encountered (well, he only encountered one but the other one was mentioned as his pal by the solider in question).
the two hour discrepancy in time is another indicator of this.
And they don't have to be the same ones, since much suggests that soldiers may have been a popular category of clients among Tabram and her associates and that there were several on leave that night.

In addition, we should treat Pearly Poll with caution since she appear to have been a very reluctant witness.

All the best

[Ben]

The crux is, ben, that they don't resemble each other one bit in any way, not in any element.

But they do, Glenn.

In contrast to what the majority of serial killers are capable of in terms of criminal diversity (even the more consistent ones) Tabram-to-Nichols would not be classed as overly dissimilar. If Tabram was a ripper victim, JTR would still be described as a consistent serial killer in contrast to most.

those elements ARE in fact the basic important signature of the killer since they appear in all of them.

Absolutely, but it is my view that they became so as a result of experimentation. He discovered his preference on the job, and stuck with it accordingly, incorporating new elements when he found the chance.

Best regards,
Ben

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

As for th throat-cutting, I second you all the way - there is very good reason to see that as a practical element more than anything else - and the depth of the cutting to the neck does in no way have to be driven by any other wish than that of silencing and killing, for reasons Iave already outlined on this thread.

Of course not. Even if you want to make sure that the victim is dead by cutting deep in order to severe the windpipe and the vessels, there is no need to turn to such drastic overkill and cut the throats so deep that the head is hardly attached to the neck.
It most certainly goes beyond any practical purpose and it also takes a longer amount of time than necessary. There can be no doubt that this element is of much deeper importance to the killer and that he actually found it worth taking risks for.

Hence, it should be reckoned as a vital part of his signature as well as his MO (the latter since the throat cut was the cause of death).

All the best

[Ben]

although I think that the organ-pinching is a bit easier to tie to his allover actions; to see the opening up of the women as a logical predecessor to taking out organs remains a compelling suggestion. That does not rule out the possibility you put forward, though.

Agreed, Fisherman. Very good point. I'd say Nichols may well have been the logical predecessor in that regard. And yes, the deep throat cuts may well have been a component of "MO" rather than signature.

Cheers,
Ben

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

But they do, Glenn.

In contrast to what the majority of serial killers are capable of in terms of criminal diversity (even the more consistent ones) Tabram-to-Nichols would not be classed as overly dissimilar. If Tabram was a ripper victim, JTR would still be described as a consistent serial killer in contrast to most.

Absolutely not, ben. I honestly can't understand why you state such a thing because there are absolutely no connecting elements in modus operandi and signature whatsoever between them. I am baffled.

All the best

[Roy Corduroy]

Hi Glenn, thanks for the reply.

My observation of what's written in the police reports was very specific. About what Pearly said, her with a corporal and Martha with a private, yet Barnett encounters - a private?

Anyone care to comment on that discrepancy?

Roy

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Roy,

Now I am confused.
I thought I tried to answer that.

Most possibly, the discrepancy lies simply in the fact that it was not the same pair of soldiers and that they are not connected.

besides that, I have no idea what you mean.

All the best

[Shelley]

Tabram went off to have sex with a soldier, so it seems. She was murdered in the stairwell of a building that was very attainable by day and night.

She had 2 different knives used on her. Dr Killeen. He was there. Who else do we have? No-one.

I go with the doctor.

Well said NTS,

Common sense and one of the probable of statements here........We do have to go by Dr Killeen.

[Roy Corduroy]

Similarities

OK, thanks Glenn,

X the soldiers.

Similarities between Tabram murder and others in the series:

Geography. Center of kill zone.
Locale. A "yard", an enclosed place.
Victim: An Unfortunate, drunk
Time: Overnight
Weapon: Knife

Roy

[Shelley]

Fisherman,

There was a 3X1 inch wound cut to the lower part of the body.
But not with any stretch of the imagination can that be interpreted as 'evidence' of an attempt to rip her up.
Nor is there any 'evidence' of that the killer was interrupted in anyway, as has been suggested.

All the best

This is correct, a 3X1 inch wound cannot be classed as evidence to cutting someone open, this could have been an accident with a frenzied attack, also the theory of a scavenger plause carries as much weight as a pissed-off wife who knows Tabram has solicited her hubby, has found her at George Yard buildings to have it out with her, and she supplied extra 2 wounds to Tabram herself.
All the Best
Shelley

[CLK]

I thought her wound count was 9 stabs to the throat,17 to the breasts(Im assuming that is the wounds inflicted to lungs and heart and 9 other stabs to breasts) and 13 to the abdomen(5 in liver, 2 in spleen and 6 in stomach). The wound must have been inflicted to her vagina since keleene says the vagina was targeted. I thought we were dealing with 39 stabs and 1 wound. I am assuming the wound was not a like stab wound or he would have said 40 stabs.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

OK, thanks Glenn,

X the soldiers.

Similarities between Tabram murder and others in the series:

Geography. Center of kill zone.
Locale. A "yard", an enclosed place.
Victim: An Unfortunate, drunk
Time: Overnight
Weapon: Knife

Roy

Hi Roy,

When I said that there are no similarites whatsoever between Tabram and the others I meant modus opernadi and signature.

As for environmental factors, they can all be easily explained by the fact that the area was littered with prostitutes and that these often were drunks in their 30s or 40s. Their main time of operating was of course nightime and the prostitutes naturllay chose confined places in order to avoid advertsing their activites to the police and because their clients wanted their privacy. So all those factors can all be naturally explained as natural circumstances surrounding the prostitutes and the environment they worked in, and not at all as any especial trademarks linked to the Ripper.

Knife - well, besides stangulation I would assume knife would be the ultimate and most common instrumne t in those days since everyone among the workingclass used knives in some shape or form and that these were foten carried upon them.

None of the above factors can be considered satisfactory evidence or indicators of the Ripper being the perpetrator.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I thought we were dealing with 39 stabs and 1 wound. .

No, 38 wounds that might have been inflicted with a 'pen knife' or something similar plus one wound inflicted by some sort of dagger. 39 wounds in all.

All the best

[CLK]

Sorry I am a bit confused.