Ripper Victim?

[Jeff Leahy]

Unless the encounter was made before the murder, or simply the deed was performed by his comrade who had "done off with a girl".

Quack.

so are you arguing they both attacked her ie two knives

Only one attacked her ie one knife

or that One soldier attacked her with a knife and slashed her with his baonet?

either way i say the better likely hood is that Tabram was an early JtR attack

because that is the simplest explination

Quack and double Quack

The fact is that as soon as you dismiss Pearli Polls story the whole soldier argument comes crashing down around your ears. And lets face it a policeman spotting a soldier down Angel Ally on a saturday night is hardly unusual.....must have happened every week, yet this kind of murder did not.

[CLK]

I had the idea of who ever killed Martha was violent but I am not suggesting he must have killed again or before. I just think it is possible the murderer of Tabram could have had a fit of rage again.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I had the idea of who ever killed Martha was violent but I am not suggesting he must have killed again or before. I just think it is possible the murderer of Tabram could have had a fit of rage again.

It's quite possible indeed, as long as we remember that these crimes also can be single occurences and that this type of offender doesn't have to be a serial killer. But if he did, he most likely wasn't responsible for the Ripper crimes.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

so are you arguing they both attacked her ie two knives
Only one attacked her ie one knife
or that One soldier attacked her with a knife and slashed her with his baonet?

Jeff,

Once again, none of us know what type of knives that were used on Tabram or if there were one or two offenders. All we know is that there most likely were tow different knives - if they belonged to one or two persons is beyond our knowledge.

And again - Tabram wasn't "slashed" in any way. One wound was larger or deeper than the others but it could just as well have been another cut or stab. There are no evidence of that she was "slashed" unless one is completely careless with the evidence.

either way i say the better likely hood is that Tabram was an early JtR attack

because that is the simplest explination

No, just the wrong one.

Quackeli quack.

[Jeff Leahy]

Jeff,

Once again, none of us know what type of knives that were used on Tabram or if there were one or two offenders. All we know is that there most likely were tow different knives - if they belonged to one or two persons is beyond our knowledge.

I think we can agree on that Glenn. I must get some sleep. All the best. Sleep well. Pirate

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

And you, Jeff.
I should probably do the same.

All the best

[CLK]

I am not going to make my mind up on Martha until more evidence comes shows up. But I have a feeling we will never know. Which is a shame because it's starting to annoy me. Goodnight all.

[Sam Flynn]

But as Fish has kindly pionted out Tabram was both Stabbed and Slashed..

Unfortunately, Fish was kindly wrong, Jeff. She was stabbed, multiple times, and sustained one wound to the lower body which might have been a short cut, but which might easily have been an angled stab that went wrong. Killeen only says that she was "penetrated" once in the lower body, which lends weight to the probability that this, too, was another stab-wound.

So what we have here is a Duck.

A somewhat lame one, at that.

[Grabbit]

Apologies if this has come up, but do we know if Martha was stabbed through her clothing or not? I can't find any reference to it in my, admittedly hurried, search.

Ally

[Ben]

Yes, when it comes to method of killing but fantasies (which signatures often are based on) are constructed during a longer period of time and not something you change abruptly

But it depends what those fantasies were, Glenn. Facial mutilations could easily have been a component of his fantasy, and yet we know that the actual concept of facial mutilations required only a couple of weeks or so to be dreamed up and thus incorporated it into his murders, hence their appearance at the Eddowes crime scene but not Chapman. I understand your argument that Jack was apparently consistent in many of his murders - that is a good point, and one beyond dispute. Unfortunetely, however, there are many examples of serial killers with equally consistent methods who are just as capable of deviating from their preferred approach. Many of them may be able to claim several markedly consistent kills under their belt, yes, but they are also responsible for other murders.

The discernment of a signature means pinpointing a general theme. It doesn't mean identifing acutely specific traits and deciding that any otherwise sutiable victim that doesn't conform to those acutely specific traits should be rule out and attributed to a different offender.

You argue that facial mutialtions are merely additions to his existing signature, but I could easily argue the same with regard to the throat cuts and eviserations. I could very plausibly and persuasively make the case that the chief component of the killer's signature was the murder and generalized post-mortem attacking and mutilation of prostitutes. The actual specifics of the post-mortem phase is susceptible to change as the offender gains experience and insight, which would neatly account for progressions such as stabbing being replaced by stab/slashing, thence to slashing. Just like Dennis Rader, he "had a general idea of what he wanted to do" (paraphrasing slightly here), but the acute specifics were occasioned by the situation.

Best regards,
Ben

P.S. Slightly distressed to see that that the stabbed versus slahed distinction is being accorded far more weight than is warranted elsewhere. Nichols was both stabbed and slashed - factorama.

[Roy Corduroy]

If I may digress for a moment.

From Insp Reid report Aug 16 -

Pearly Poll said she and Martha were with two soldiers. She went up Angel Court with the corporal, and Martha went up George Yard with the private.

PC Barrett reports talking to a soldier at the end of George yard who was waiting for his mate. You would think that would be the corporal, waiting on the private who went up George Yard with Martha, but NO Barrett says he spoke to a private.

Roy

[harry]

What is frenzy? My understanding is 'A tempory loss of mental control'.I do not detect it in the killing of Tabram.I can visualise a period of high alertness through the approach,the actual wounding,and the departure, being as all three were carried out without raising a single suspicion of his presence.How long did the attack last?I have no idea,but in such a public place,he would not be lighting a cigarette,having a sip of beer,or generally lounging around sitting on his ass between stabs.So maybe it was haste,not frenzy,that accounted for what some percieve to be random stabs,and haste and alertness,is very much in evidence in the latter killings.

[Fisherman]

Glenn writes:

"For which there are no evidence whatsoever that it was "slashed" - despite Fishcake's theorising."

The evidence is very clear, since the wound was recorded as being three inches long and one inch deep. As for proof, that is another thing altogether, and demanding proof either way will make us both come up short.

The best,
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

But it depends what those fantasies were, Glenn. Facial mutilations could easily have been a component of his fantasy, and yet we know that the actual concept of facial mutilations required only a couple of weeks or so to be dreamed up and thus incorporated it into his murders, hence their appearance at the Eddowes crime scene but not Chapman. I understand your argument that Jack was apparently consistent in many of his murders - that is a good point, and one beyond dispute. Unfortunetely, however, there are many examples of serial killers with equally consistent methods who are just as capable of deviating from their preferred approach. Many of them may be able to claim several markedly consistent kills under their belt, yes, but they are also responsible for other murders.

The discernment of a signature means pinpointing a general theme. It doesn't mean identifing acutely specific traits and deciding that any otherwise sutiable victim that doesn't conform to those acutely specific traits should be rule out and attributed to a different offender.

You argue that facial mutialtions are merely additions to his existing signature, but I could easily argue the same with regard to the throat cuts and eviserations. I could very plausibly and persuasively make the case that the chief component of the killer's signature was the murder and generalized post-mortem attacking and mutilation of prostitutes. The actual specifics of the post-mortem phase is susceptible to change as the offender gains experience and insight, which would neatly account for progressions such as stabbing being replaced by stab/slashing, thence to slashing. Just like Dennis Rader, he "had a general idea of what he wanted to do" (paraphrasing slightly here), but the acute specifics were occasioned by the situation.

Best regards,
Ben

P.S. Slightly distressed to see that that the stabbed versus slahed distinction is being accorded far more weight than is warranted elsewhere. Nichols was both stabbed and slashed - factorama.

*sigh*
Please, Ben, try to stay with me.
I don't know why I have to repeat the same things over and over again.
I have never said that parts of his signature couldn't change or develop further.

For the uptenth time - yes, the facial mutilations are a part of his fantasies (I thought I made that perfectly clear).
BUT, they are only a PART of the already displayed fantasy - namely to cut their throats very deep and mutilate them by cutting and ripping them up (and take one or two organs if possible). And it's a part that has been added, which is perfectly natural since it would be expected that his signature/fantasy would develop and have new things added or changed to some degree.

But that is a million miles away from suggesting a change from Tabram to Nichols, since Tabram does not display any of the signature elements seen on Nichols, Chapman and Eddowes.
Therefore - comparing that to the facial cuts on Eddowes is just plain unbelievable since in Eddowes case the main fantasy stays the same - the other elements are there in addition to the facial cuts.
So when he did the facial cuts on Eddowes, his fantasies and signature remined intact and didn't really change in its basic form - he just addeed another element to it.

It is a hell of a difference from changing fantasy and signature altogether (especially since the Tabram murder hardly show any post mortem signature at all).

I am astounded over the fact that you can't see the difference.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

P.S. Slightly distressed to see that that the stabbed versus slahed distinction is being accorded far more weight than is warranted elsewhere.

Why shouldn't it be afforded any particular weight, Ben? The acts of stabbing and making long cuts are palpably different, and the distinction is as warranted here as it is elsewhere (e.g. Annie Millwood, Ellen Bury). The problem is that the "elsewheres" are firmly on the fringe of the Ripper canon.

Nichols was both stabbed and slashed - factorama.

The fact is that Nichols had two small stab wounds, which were incidental to the majority of her horrific injuries - they might even have been accidental to them. The same cannot be said of Tabram, where such wounds - deep ones - predominated to the point of exclusivity.