Ripper Victim?

[Shelley]

Hi Fisherman

I`ll have to disagree here. If the knife described by Phillips, Llewelyn, Brown and Bond was or might have been a pen knife they would have said as much.

If Doctor's Philip's, Llewelyn, Brown and Bond mentioned pen-knife...There are some blades of pen-knife that can be the same (to certain length in inches stabbed into a body) that can fit a dagger or a specific bayonet type.
Pen-knives can come in different widths of blade as well as lengths in inches.
So it's reasonable to assume that any type, pen-knife, dagger or bayonet could have been used on Martha.

[Shelley]

Shelley, I never rule out anything! But I don't believe a couple of soldiers out on the ran-tan would take anything as cumbersome as their bayonets with them! Knives, yes. For protection and for cutting up their fish and chips. But bayonets? That's a very specific type of weapon. I agree, given the evidence that Tabram had been with soldiers, the police might have asked Killeen if the weapon could be a bayonet and he said 'yes'. But for me, a bayonet is a stretch...

Chava,
We don't really know whether a soldier would take his bayonet out on the town, the soldier could be showing off to those in and around town his bayonet, some macho stuff. Also why would the police have asked whether a bayonet could have been used to Dr Killeen, if the police at the time didn't think as i have in the above, in this post?

[Fisherman]

"Pen-knives can come in different widths of blade as well as lengths in inches"

Arguably, yes - but if the blade that stabbed Tabram was a two inches wide and ten inches long pen-knife blade, I really don´t see how Killeen would have seen through the scam.

The best,
Fisherman

[Shelley]

"Fisherman's idea that Dr Killeen was a young into the game Dr and didn't know what he was talking about, is a bit lame"

Ehrm, Shelley... Fisherman is NOT ruling out a bayonet. What he DOES rule out though, is that the wound gave away a bayonet SPECIFICALLY in any way - if it WAS such a blade, then it was one that produced a hole that did not in any way differ from what a dagger would produce. And that would have been the exact sentiments of Killeen too.

Fisherman
unlame

Fisherman,
That's how you came across to me, but with the above, sorry for the assumption......However, i don't think Killeen came to the assumtion of your term.......' What he does rule out though, is that the wound gave away a bayonet SPECIFICALLY in any way - if it WAS such a blade, then it was one that produced a hole that did not in any way differ from what a dagger would produce. And what would have been the exact sentitments of Killeeen too. '.....Killeen did say first ' Dagger ' then also after that type of weapon he did say ' Bayonet ' so i don't think Killeen was specifically pointing to a bayonet, he was saying it was possible, just as a dagger was possible, and the other Doctor's said pen-knife was possible. There is one thing for sure...It was a blade of some type as those mentioned and not a gun!

[Shelley]

"Pen-knives can come in different widths of blade as well as lengths in inches"

Arguably, yes - but if the blade that stabbed Tabram was a two inches wide and ten inches long pen-knife blade, I really don´t see how Killeen would have seen through the scam.

The best,
Fisherman

Fisherman,
My first question is have you taken a look at blades from knives used in the victorian period?
A pen-knife as we know it by today, is somewhat different in the victorian period, as some surgeon's knives were kept like a flick-knife, and the knife or a set of three different knives that flicked out from a case cover. The descriptions have also been in papers or what ever other source, as a 'surgeon's knife' could have also been used at one stage as some suggest. This is also an addressing of ' Pen-knife ' as the other Doctor's suggested. These pen-knifes ( flick-knife or surgeon's knifes etc), do come in different widths and lengths, also the smaller versions were obviously much smaller in length and width and could be carried in a pocket.
The reference to a surgeon's knife may well come from knowing that 2 or 3 knives could be kept much like what we refer to ' Flick-knife ' , and the fact that these could come with a smooth blade from one of the knives, and also a jagged blade with it's twin knife contained in the case and cover ready to be used as and which one needed. They were also a dab hand at being able to amputate in 30 seconds flat. Also an individual could take the idea of a ' surgeon's knife, with one blade being smooth and the other jagged, and make a homemade version combined, with a case to cover one or both blades, as the surgeon's knifes were sold in that period of time with a case cover.

[Shelley]

Bayonet, Fish & chips

Chava,
I would rule out eating your fish & chips with a bayonet though!.....Hee hee.

The only reason that a possible 2 weapons came up for discussion on this thread, is that the stab to Tabram's heart was caused by a weapon that would have hit the sternum, as you get by this breastbone to the heart, Killeen knew that the breastbone had hardened given Tabram's age, so he said Dagger or Bayonet, it was all the other wounds that could have been a Pen-knife possibly & depending ( one which is different as we know them today) my assumption is that it was a weapon that could hit the sternum to the heart as well as all the other wounds to the other organs. So a dagger or Bayonet type weapon. It may also be that the police suspecting a soldier had heard that the soldier gone off with a girl had been carrying a bayonet from someone.

[Fisherman]

Shelle asks:

"have you taken a look at blades from knives used in the victorian period?"

I have, Shelley - and I have seen many examples. I´m sure that there are lots more to see too. But the fact of the matter is, that if we allow ourselves to speculate that a pen-knife could be of any size and shape, it renders Killeens assertion useless. The only reasonable suggestion is that he offered that resemblance in order to explain what he had seen - and the major part of all pen-knives (Victorian or not) are knives with short, small, narrow blades. Therefore it stands to reason that this was the sort of blade Killeen wanted to lead our thoughts to.

The best,
Fisherman

[Shelley]

Hi Fisherman,

Personally i go with the dagger or bayonet blade being used on Tabram, some minature knifes encased that are Victorian are novelty ones, others more elaborate with real diamonds, rubies, emeralds and sapphires, also some are made of 9 ct gold & 18 ct gold.

[Sam Flynn]

the fact of the matter is, that if we allow ourselves to speculate that a pen-knife could be of any size and shape, it renders Killeens assertion useless.

A good point, and very well put.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

And I agree. One weapon was used. I just don't think it was a bayonet! I don't see how someone goes out with two knives on his person. That's a bit overkill-ish for me!

Again, although Killeen may have been uncertain and unclear of exactly what types of weapons that were used he is VERY clear on the matter tyhat the same instrument couldn't have inflicted all the wounds - there is no question about it. And he was certain enough to state this under oath at the inquest.
Although Killeen was not an experienced forensic police surgeon, he would most certainly not have stated with certainty that two different weapons were used if he wasn't sure about it.

That said, I don't believe in a bayonet either.

As for someone wearing more than one knife, I don't see any real reason to rule that out. Knives were more common in those days and were used for everything.
And of course two different weapons doesn't necessarily mean one individual with two instruments, but could also mean two offenders in collaboration.

All the best

[Shelley]

Glenn Lauritz Andersson;

That said, I don't believe in a bayonet either.

As for someone wearing more than one knife, I don't see any real reason to rule that out. Knives were more common in those days and were used for everything.
And of course two different weapons doesn't necessarily mean one individual with two instruments, but could also mean two offenders in collaboration.

Good point Glenn,

However, it is possible for one weapon to have penetrated the sternum and the heart, as with all the other wounds to other organs by this same weapon. In Walter Dew's memoires the original thought was that the death of Emma Smith was perhaps in the same bag as Martha Tabram and Dew mentioned ' High Rip Gang ', but later the police really didn't know and classed all the killings, Emma's, Tabram's, Nicholls and Chapman's together. Dew also mentions that because Martha was in the habit of going mainly with Salior's and Soldier's, both sailor's and soldiers were questioned, so it wasn't just Soldier's. Dew went on to say that the Tower soldier's would not likely have been out on a bank holiday in the east-end late at night, although a little few that were young may well have, due to inexperience of the area. Also Pearly Poll was very frightend after talking with the police, she ran away because she was so scared he say's, although Police tracked her down and found her in convent garden, after fetching her from convent garden she was then involved with the ID of two soldiers, because of thier rank and postions as soldiers, the police didn't take two much notice of her, but she wasn't clear either. Pearly Poll i think didn't want to give any real credible evidence, as she was too afraid but also in a difficult situation as regarding the police as well.

[perrymason]

Thanks so much, Shelley!

And I agree. One weapon was used. I just don't think it was a bayonet! I don't see how someone goes out with two knives on his person. That's a bit overkill-ish for me!

I dont see how that statement holds any water Chava, for in fact we know that on Holidays many military men, current and past, wore their weapons in public. They had knives, some short swords, and some either of the aforementioned with bayonets. We have knowledge that not just one,...but likely some men were wearing 2, bladed, weapons on their person that night.

Your comment reveals a preconception that Martha's killer went out specifically to kill...like this Jack fellow did....when its clear by the above that if 2 weapons were used, one large like a bayonet or dagger... it was likely it was one man that used them, because we know a single man could easily be wearing 2 blades or more. And the ridiculous stab numbers that seem caused by an angry man might bear out a completely spontaneous act...maybe fueled by a moral or self control lapse due to alcohol.

I think the fact that Martha is killed by perhaps 2 blades, and we know 2 bladed men were about....indicates that this killer likely didnt go out to kill specifically at all. He just ended up doing so and used what was on him....kinda like BSM probably.

Cheers Chava

[Chava]

in fact we know that on Holidays many military men, current and past, wore their weapons in public. They had knives, some short swords, and some either of the aforementioned with bayonets.

Wait, what? They wore their weapons? Or do you mean they wore their dress uniforms. Because if they wore their weapons, the locals would have taken a very dim view of it. I know that soldiers wore their dress uniforms when they went out on the town. That's why girls who..er...went out with soldiers were said to have caught 'scarlet fever'. But that doesn't mean they carried their weapons. However they were issued with military knives, I believe. And they could well have carried them along for protection etc. That may be what the police meant when they asked about 'bayonets'. From what I can gather, the knives were shorter than bayonets, more like a modern clasp knife maybe.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Good point Glenn,

However, it is possible for one weapon to have penetrated the sternum and the heart, as with all the other wounds to other organs by this same weapon.

Yes, personally I agree with that possibility.
But as I said, my disbelief in that idea is based on Killeen's very clear statement about two different knives being used.
he may not have had enough forensic experience in estimating what type of weapon(s) but if he says that the same instrument couldn't have inflicted all the wounds, I have no reason to doubt it. After all, he saw the wounds, we don't, and his verbal description of them is not very detailed from am modern forensic point of view.
If he hadn't been so sure about this under oath, I wouldn't have stressed that point.

All the best

[Nothing to see]

Yes, personally I agree with that possibility.
But as I said, my disbelief in that idea is based on Killeen's very clear statement about two different knives being used.
he may not have had enough forensic experience in estimating what type of weapon(s) but if he says that the same instrument couldn't have inflicted all the wounds, I have no reason to doubt it. After all, he saw the wounds, we don't, and his verbal description of them is not very detailed from am modern forensic point of view.
If he hadn't been so sure about this under oath, I wouldn't have stressed that point.

All the best

You're correct. Killeen specifically mentions 2 different weapons. He was sure about that and again, there are no photos, nothing except Killeen's observations. If you don't believe him, then where do you go for a second opinion? Nowhere. There's nothing to make me doubt his professional opinion.

Personally, it makes me think that Tabram was killed by 2 murderers and I suspect they were both soldiers but I can't prove that. It just makes sense IMO. As to what Pearly Poll was up to with her behaviour, it's been argued that she was too nasty to want to help the police and tried to dodge them.
Myself, I'd figure she was probably too drunk the night of the murder to have been of any help to anyone, especially identifying men days later.

I'm sure Jack started somewhere and it wasn't his full blown attack on Nichols. But I don't think it was Tabram. She was in the general area before the canon began, she was stabbed, look for Jack. If Jack hadn't appeared, she would never be attributed to him.