Ripper Victim?

[Ben]

And Glenn's valid point here is that The extreme throat-cuts are a mix of both MO & Signature

Indeed, and that may very well be true.

Considering the extent of cutting on her nose, it is more than likely he had been practising on perhaps a corpse in a basement/cellar somewhere

No, sorry. That isn't "more than likely" at all.

[Sam Flynn]

i made mention of an adaption with the facial mutilations on Eddowes....Considering the extent of cutting on her nose, it is more than likely he had been practising on perhaps a corpse in a basement/cellar somewhere...If not the facial mutilations would be less severe.

I don't see that any practice would be needed before one could hack off the tip of a nose and score a knife-blade into someone's features, Shelley. It's all rather spontaneous and crude - as, indeed, was the puncturing of Martha Tabram. (He said, bringing the discussion back on-topic.)

[protohistorian]

Facial mutilations could serve as a dehumanising behavior within the mind of the killer. One possible reason for facial mutilations would be a pang of concious within the mind of the killer post kill. It may very well be that Jack was not as excepting of his own behvior as we would like to believe, at least not all of the time. There are modern analogs for this behavior, and they point to "buyers remorse" like feelings as facial mutilation triggers. Respectfully

[Shelley]

I don't see that any practice would be needed before one could hack off the tip of a nose and score a knife-blade into someone's features, Shelley. It's all rather spontaneous and crude - as, indeed, was the puncturing of Martha Tabram. (He said, bringing the discussion back on-topic.)

Not if the nose bone was also included in the cut Sam.

[Shelley]

Indeed, and that may very well be true.



No, sorry. That isn't "more than likely" at all.

It is if you consider mutilations to the body itself and knowing to pass a membrane that covers an organ, that a Doctor in his report picked out. So practising on a corpse is still upheld.

[FrankO]

But as it stands now, there is absolutely nothing that ties her to a Ripper crime.

Tjena Glenn,

That's quite a bold statement, my Swedish friend. I'm not going to try to convince you of anything, because I know that aint no use, but your statement is untrue. There's not just the locality, the time frame and the overkill, but - much more importantly - there's the spread-eagled legs, the turned up skirts and the cut to Tabram's private part, clearly showing a specific morbid interest in her lower body, which was certainly shared by the Ripper. Obviously, that doesn't make Tabram a Ripper victim, but there sure isn't 'absolutely noting' to ty her to the Ripper murders either.

All the best,
Frank

[Ben]

It is if you consider mutilations to the body itself and knowing to pass a membrane that covers an organ, that a Doctor in his report picked out.

Except that doctor was effectively outnumbered three to one in espousing that view.

[Shelley]

For Sam

Not if the nose bone was also included. The mutilations on the body still holds valid for practise of mutilation on a corpse, especially with a doctor's report stating about getting past a membrane to the organ, coming to the conclusion that the Ripper had some medical knowledge......

Eddowes:
There was a deep cut over the bridge of the nose, extending from the left border of the nasal bone down near the angle of the jaw on the right side of the cheek. This cut went into the bone and divided all the structures of the cheek except the mucous membrane of the mouth.


So Sam....Bone cut on face and nose.

[Shelley]

Except that doctor was effectively outnumbered three to one in espousing that view.

Ben, i don't recall it myself, as last when i checked it was all four doctors that stated the killer had some atomnical knowledge, only 1 said that he didn't then changed his mind and said with the other three that he did.
Even if it was only a crude knowledge, rather than a medical student, an army medic/doctor, mortuary worker/assistant or A doctor himself.

[Shelley]

Tjena Glenn,

That's quite a bold statement, my Swedish friend. I'm not going to try to convince you of anything, because I know that aint no use, but your statement is untrue. There's not just the locality, the time frame and the overkill, but - much more importantly - there's the spread-eagled legs, the turned up skirts and the cut to Tabram's private part, clearly showing a specific morbid interest in her lower body, which was certainly shared by the Ripper. Obviously, that doesn't make Tabram a Ripper victim, but there sure isn't 'absolutely noting' to ty her to the Ripper murders either.

All the best,
Frank

Frank,
And your point here could well be that, if her attacker had just had sex with her or tried to and he felt short changed say ' she was trying to get away with a knee trembler ' and he saw he wasn't getting a fully paid service, her legs could just have been left like that by a coincidence, or perhaps as a note that she tried to out do him of his money. ( How about that for theory!)
However Fisher may try to clutch on to Tabram being a possible Ripper victim and part of his argument is theory, theory is all well and good but ' Likelyhood overrides ' in the course of ' More realistic ' in circumstances.

Oops i forgot to use this:
The Hillside strangler also left some of his victims in such a spread-eagled fashion as you mention Frank, so more than one serial killer has used this, and in this senario the Hillside strangler ain't a suspect in the JTR case. I also knew of a man who was either psychopathic or had traits at least and a favourite was a joke in leaving a woman he'd used as a rape victim in such said fashion, although i think he may only have killed as a result of involvement with drug running. And for the most part most rapists don't kill.

[Sam Flynn]

Not if the nose bone was also included in the cut Sam.

Even if that were the case, Shelley (and it wasn't - but let's please not get into Eddowes territory here) how much practice does it take to hack through a bone? It's no more complicated, and requires no more force, than shoving the point of a spade into a frost-hardened lawn.

[Ben]

Ben, i don't recall it myself, as last when i checked it was all four doctors that stated the killer had some atomnical knowledge

Hi Shelley,

No, only one doctor from the Eddowes murder believed the perpetrator had noticeable anatomical knowledge/skill. The others didn't, and no, none of them changed their minds. Even Brown suggested that the amount of knowledge displayed could have been possessed by someone used to cutting up animals.

Regards,
Ben

[perrymason]

Hi all,

I think that Martha Tabrams explantion is likely already on the books myself,.....she is killed with what may be 2 distinctly different blades, one causing a single deep stab,...on a day when any man with a few pound notes or less can dress up like a Military Man including wearing knives and/or daggers and bayonets. On Holiday's servicemen were allowed to wear these weapons in public, and since they were available for purchase in some shops, as well as uniforms, non miltary men could pass for one.

Whether a military man himself, or passing himself off as one, he may only have used the larger weapon once at the end because in his frenzy he had forgotten that today.... he was wearing one.

He may never have worn one before...or as a soldier, only in full dress excercises or combat. Which may mean he might have only used the bayonet if he had his wits about him at the time, instead of stabbing with a "pen knife" furiously. She could have been killed with a single bayonet wound.... under this premise.

Best regards all.

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley,

No, only one doctor from the Eddowes murder believed the perpetrator had noticeable anatomical knowledge/skill. The others didn't, and no, none of them changed their minds. Even Brown suggested that the amount of knowledge displayed could have been possessed by someone used to cutting up animals.

Regards,
Ben

Ben,

Then display the actual copies of the reports from the doctors on this thread, as the reports i read upheld what i've already said, and i wouldn't have said if this didn't stick in my mind as to the actual reports i read over a year ago. Especially when i vividly recall the doctor saying that it would have to be someone with anomitcal knowledge to get past the membrane of & to the womb, and this is often overlooked!

[Shelley]

For Sam

Even if that were the case, Shelley (and it wasn't - but let's please not get into Eddowes territory here) how much practice does it take to hack through a bone? It's no more complicated, and requires no more force, than shoving the point of a spade into a frost-hardened lawn.

Sorry Sam bone had been cut:

As i made a post to you on this thread.....If the killer was just a hack-job crude then why isn't all Eddowes face from the eyes to the nose all a butchery job, he only nicked under the eyes, which is a bit more care in where the knife may have accidently flicked, which shows a little practise somewhere i think.
I also think that this was a trigger with Eddowes and not Nicholls & Chapman.

.....Shoving a spade in a frost-hardened lawn........Bollocks!