Ripper Victim?

[Chava]

Thanks for that, Jon. I have just read the inquest summing-up. Of course Chapman had been killed by this time, and the coroner spends more time talking about her than about Smith or Tabram. He makes the point that Smith is unlikely to have been killed by the same person who killed Chapman and Nicholls, but he doesn't make that decision about Tabram. So it must have been in the mind of the police that there might be a link.

[perrymason]

I think it would be far easier to differentiate between kills associated with someone who was aptly named "The Ripper", and the culprit or culprits that attacked unfortunates beginning in the spring of 88.

The murders and attacks that led up to and including Martha involved exclusively "stabs" with knives or even a blunt object.

Annie Millwood:

"It appears the deceased was admitted to the Whitechapel Infirmary suffering from numerous stabs in the legs and lower part of the body."

Ada Wilson:

"....The man forced his way into the room and demanded money, and when she refused he stabbed her twice in the throat and ran, leaving her for dead. It is reported that nearby neighbours almost captured the man, but he found his escape"

Emma Smith:

"As she would later report, she was returning home that night, probably the worse for drink, when at least three, maybe four youths began following her from Whitechapel Church. They would stop her on the corner of Brick Lane and Wentworth Street, where they beat, raped, and viciously jabbed a blunt object into her vagina, tearing the perineum. The boys emptied her purse before leaving her to die on the street."

It would appear that the motive for 2 of the above was robbery, and the knifes were used to stab. And all three have very similar situations to Marthas, and little or nothing in common with Pollys death:

Polly Nichols:

""Five teeth were missing, and there was a slight laceration of the tongue. There was a bruise running along the lower part of the jaw on the right side of the face. That might have been caused by a blow from a fist or pressure from a thumb. There was a circular bruise on the left side of the face which also might have been inflicted by the pressure of the fingers. On the left side of the neck, about 1 in. below the jaw, there was an incision about 4 in. in length, and ran from a point immediately below the ear. On the same side, but an inch below, and commencing about 1 in. in front of it, was a circular incision, which terminated at a point about 3 in. below the right jaw. That incision completely severed all the tissues down to the vertebrae. The large vessels of the neck on both sides were severed. The incision was about 8 in. in length. the cuts must have been caused by a long-bladed knife, moderately sharp, and used with great violence. No blood was found on the breast, either of the body or the clothes. There were no injuries about the body until just about the lower part of the abdomen. Two or three inches from the left side was a wound running in a jagged manner. The wound was a very deep one, and the tissues were cut through. There were several incisions running across the abdomen. There were three or four similar cuts running downwards, on the right side, all of which had been caused by a knife which had been used violently and downwards. the injuries were form left to right and might have been done by a left handed person. All the injuries had been caused by the same instrument."

Or Annies death;

Annie Chapman:

"The left arm was placed across the left breast. The legs were drawn up, the feet resting on the ground, and the knees turned outwards. The face was swollen and turned on the right side. The tongue protruded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips. The tongue was evidently much swollen. The front teeth were perfect as far as the first molar, top and bottom and very fine teeth they were. The body was terribly mutilated...the stiffness of the limbs was not marked, but was evidently commencing. He noticed that the throat was dissevered deeply.; that the incision through the skin were jagged and reached right round the neck...On the wooden paling between the yard in question and the next, smears of blood, corresponding to where the head of the deceased lay, were to be seen. These were about 14 inches from the ground, and immediately above the part where the blood from the neck lay.

He should say that the instrument used at the throat and abdomen was the same. It must have been a very sharp knife with a thin narrow blade, and must have been at least 6 in. to 8 in. in length, probably longer. He should say that the injuries could not have been inflicted by a bayonet or a sword bayonet. They could have been done by such an instrument as a medical man used for post-mortem purposes, but the ordinary surgical cases might not contain such an instrument. Those used by the slaughtermen, well ground down, might have caused them. He thought the knives used by those in the leather trade would not be long enough in the blade. There were indications of anatomical knowledge...he should say that the deceased had been dead at least two hours, and probably more, when he first saw her; but it was right to mention that it was a fairly cool morning, and that the body would be more apt to cool rapidly from its having lost a great quantity of blood. There was no evidence of a struggle."

Ever wonder what happened to the money Martha earned from the soldier who Pearly Poll saw her leave with at 11:45pm? Or any clients she may have had after that and before around 2am?

Well,....maybe you should. I know I do.

All the best

[Chava]

Ever wonder what happened to the money Martha earned from the soldier who Pearly Poll saw her leave with at 11:45pm? Or any clients she may have had after that and before around 2am?

Well,....maybe you should. I know I do.

I do too, Michael. But it's possible that as she earned it, she drank it. We know Nicholls said she'd had her doss-house money 3 times that day and drank it every time...

[perrymason]

I do too, Michael. But it's possible that as she earned it, she drank it. We know Nicholls said she'd had her doss-house money 3 times that day and drank it every time...

Hi Chava,

What we have with Polly is her own words of what she had done with her earned moeny prior to her death...with Martha we have her found in a place that she headed with a client hours before, likely indicating a favoured " connection" spot of hers...(because we know she was there near midnight and later found there after 2:30am)....and we dont have anyone who says they saw her drinking in between those times including Poll...who finished with her fella I believe around 12:30. Conceivably Martha could have serviced a client, stepped out to get another, and stepped in to service that one more than once.

If we knew she was being held while stabbed....this would be much clearer I think.

Cheers "mate"...

[perrymason]

Either everyone is through here,...or some dont have a set response to my theorizing...so Ill just add this and see...

-Which womans murder is the one that most dramatically deviates from all the other attack/murders that were committed from February till August 31st, 1888?

-What are 2 common elements of 2 of the first 3 unsolved murders in Whitechapel that Spring, pre-August?

-Are there clues that both of these same elements are present in the Tabram crime scene?

-Are those same 2 elements readily recognizable in the crime scenes of Canonical Victims 1, 2 and 4?

The elements are stabbing only with a knife, and robbery.

We have good reason to suspect Martha earned some money that night, at least she went with one client before midnight. She is stabbed only, and possibly robbed...and her body bore 2 different wound types.

Best regards all.

[Roy Corduroy]

So maybe he went from his stabbing phase to his ripping phase. The money involved is de minimis.

The early crimes are strongly related by geography.

(1) Emma Smith attacked at Wentworth St and Brick Lane
(2) Martha Tabram murdered in George Yard
(3) Mary Ann Nichols last seen alive at Whitechapel Rd and Osborn St

It's all right there.

Roy

[perrymason]

So maybe he went from his stabbing phase to his ripping phase. A. The money involved is de minimis.

The early crimes are strongly related by geography.

(1) Emma Smith attacked at Wentworth St and Brick Lane
(2) Martha Tabram murdered in George Yard
(3) Mary Ann Nichols last seen alive at Whitechapel Rd and Osborn St

It's all right there.

Roy

Hi Roy,

Suggesting that its of no relevance investigatorially whether she was robbed is not good detective work, and Im sure you know that.

Those crimes are strongly related by geography...and barely related by circumstances. Were talking about murders from within Whitechapel-Spitalfield, not just ones that are a stone throw apart. As you know, at least one other serial killer made Torso's, and perhaps committed other crimes during that same period, in those same neighborhoods.

Emma Smith is attacked and raped by 3 or 4 men and robbed...depending on the story....Martha is stabbed to death with 2 different weapons involved, and has no money on her person.....Polly is gutted in the street after her head is almost cut off.

Im wondering how you and some others rationalize those facts and conclude 1 serial killer.

Best regards Roy.

[Ben]

There's no evidence that any of the victims had any money on them, Mike.

So for all we know all of them could have been robbed.

Im wondering how you and some others rationalize those facts and conclude 1 serial killer.

By acknowledging that serial killers are perfectly capable of altering to far greater extent than the cases you've outlined above.

[harry]

Killeen specified nine stabs to the throat,a rather small area when compared to the rest of the body.Concentrating on these stabs alone,I would welcome comments to the following questions.Does anyone percieve an intent to concentrate stabs there? Were they committed as a series of stabs,one following the other with no other stab to the body in between?Were they the first stabs,or did they come after other bodily ones?What was the intent behind those stabs?

[Supe]

Chava,

A casual hour or two spent watching a kosher butcher killing an animal would teach him.

Not at all. No more than spending a season watching Manchester United would have taught you to "bend it like Beckham." Indeed, any such "skill" (and silently and neatly cutting a throat like JtR did is certainly a skill) is only learned and honed with practice.

And here's a question for those who argue that Tabram's killer changed his method of murder when he met Polly Nichols: Why would he have felt the need? Martha, like the wicked witch, was most assuredly dead and if he really wore himself stabbing her 39 times, well Dr. Killeen surely instructed him that the one blow to the heart would have been sufficient to kill.

Don.

[Mitch Rowe]

Killeen specified nine stabs to the throat,a rather small area when compared to the rest of the body.Concentrating on these stabs alone,I would welcome comments to the following questions.Does anyone percieve an intent to concentrate stabs there? Were they committed as a series of stabs,one following the other with no other stab to the body in between?Were they the first stabs,or did they come after other bodily ones?What was the intent behind those stabs?

I perceive an intent to concentrate ALL the stabs in specific vital areas. Either a soldier did it or someone who knew a little something about killing.

Killeens theory was that most if not all of the wounds were inflicted before death but we have no pictures and scant reporting of the evidence.

The intent appears to be revenge of some kind. Something more than just a small dispute. I find it hard to believe a soldier would bother if Martha had stolen something from him. Unless she did it earlier and he finally found out where she was. The chances of a soldier or anyone else finding her would be slim however.

[Fisherman]

Don writes:

"here's a question for those who argue that Tabram's killer changed his method of murder when he met Polly Nichols: Why would he have felt the need? Martha, like the wicked witch, was most assuredly dead and if he really wore himself stabbing her 39 times, well Dr. Killeen surely instructed him that the one blow to the heart would have been sufficient to kill."

As you know, Don, I see no reason to believe that the man who stabbed Tabram 37 times would ever resort to any cutting with other victims. Nor do I see any real reason to believe that he ever killed again; for I donīt think that the stabber and the cutter were one and the same.

The answers you will get to this question of yours will probably go along the lines "He found out that stabbing was not his thing, that it did not fulfill his fantasies" and so on. My contention is that if he did not enjoy stabbing all that much, it would be a strange thing to do to add 37 (or 38, if you are right ...) stabs to the initial one.
Nope, id the stabber was the only man that attacked Tabram with a knife that night, then the most reasonable wiew is that he was NOT Jack.
But I really think that my alternative scenario has a lot going for it. Itīs not every day you get a medical report telling you that TWO blades have been used, just as it is not every day you find yourself faced with 38 stabs that may all roughly be said to belong to the same upper body area, and just the one wound that deviates geographically, quite probably being situated on the lower abdomen. Nor is it everyday that you find a distribution of 38 evident stabs - and just the one cut.
It is a state of affairs that calls for some serious afterthought.

The best, Don!
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

I guess we should all be done and dusted about Tabram. Not one of Jack's, only common point she was killed in the area. 2 different weapons, probably 2 murderers. Interesting theory that one of them was Jack waiting in the wings but I need solid evidence to agree with that. No throat slash, no attempt to strangle or choke, no ripping. Not Jack.

I understand why the police would have thought there could be a connection between Tabram and Nicholls. Anyone remotely intelligent in the area would have probably thought the same. If there was, where are the official records? I know a lot of the Ripper files have 'lost' themselves over the years but say, Swanson or McNaughten? They don't posit Tabram in with the canon. I'm not saying they're the 'last word' but if McNaughton can talk about Druitt as a possible suspect, then why wouldn't he mention Tabram as a possible victim?

[Fisherman]

Done and dusted about Tabram? Donīt think so, NTS...!

The best,
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

What is there left to say?