Ripper Victim?

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

It's too late in the evening for a drink now, Brenda.

All the best

[perrymason]

It's too late in the evening for a drink now, Brenda.

All the best

Not in Toronto it aint ....he says sipping some very "oaky" wine.

Best regards my Swedish friend.

[halomanuk]

I have just watched about 10 minutes of 'From Hell'....that is enough to drive me to drink..!!!!!!!!!

[perrymason]

I have just watched about 10 minutes of 'From Hell'....that is enough to drive me to drink..!!!!!!!!!

HI Barry,

Nice to see you about. You have to admit though that the opening scene where the camera is hand held walking up the alley...out in front of the Ten Bells ......closing in on two then 3 of our lead characters....a fabulously shot opening I think. Very evocative of what I imagine street level was like there at night.

The soundtrack is also good....nice and weird.

The rest including the storyline is poodle farts.....but they showed momentary brilliance.

Have you seen the all digital version of Beowulf..came out a year or so ago. The first 30 seconds you think its filmed...its so good. Id like a Jack version done in that format...really capture London, the skies, the faces we have sketches of or photos of them...the shadows and damp cobblestones would be great rendered like that.

Sorry for rambling,...From Hell is to blame.

Cheers Barry

[Chava]

From Hell is terrifying!

Just for the record, Shelley's posts are deeply offensive to me. And her assertions that Jews stone people, that they frighten animals to make the blood run faster when they are killed etc etc are so much ignorant rubbish. I assume you all know that. But someone might wander in off the street and think 'Gosh! The Jews do stuff like that! How horrible...' So I feel that somewhere on this thread I have to point out abysmal ignorance and stupidity when I see it.

Now moving on...

[Jeff Leahy]

Re: the stab wound in the heart, not being the first wound, and the pool of blood, etc.

The building superintendant Mr. Hewitt, who apparently saw the body in situ, claimed there was “blood flowing from a great wound over her heart. There were many other stab wounds of a frightful character on her.” - Morning Advertiser, August 8, 1888

Rob H

An interesting find Rob. However you can conclude the crime it seems likely that, if Martha was still alive when stabbed, her blood preasure was high and the killer learnt a lot about blood flow.

Pirate

[Jeff Leahy]

From Hell is terrifying!

Just for the record, Shelley's posts are deeply offensive to me. And her assertions that Jews stone people, that they frighten animals to make the blood run faster when they are killed etc etc are so much ignorant rubbish. I assume you all know that. But someone might wander in off the street and think 'Gosh! The Jews do stuff like that! How horrible...' So I feel that somewhere on this thread I have to point out abysmal ignorance and stupidity when I see it.

Now moving on...

Chava

I don’t know what your beef with Shelley is about. I can tell you that there is no place in Riperology for anti-Semitic ideology.

The Jewish community in 1888 is a subject that must be broached with much sensitivity, especially by those of us who believe the suspect may have been part of that community. Also sensitivity must be shown to communities that suffer mental health issues like schizophrenia.

There are those that would seek to twist our words and out theories about Jack the Ripper to their own ends.

I think a little more care might be taken on this thread. Our interest is in the identity of jack the Ripper, not causing offence to the innocent or mentally disadvantaged sections of our communities.

Pirate

[Shelley]

Shochet & Don Rumbelow

Shochet:

An experienced shochet that has trained the apprentice shochet in the skills of Shechitah gives the hodaah.The training consists of teaching the apprentice shochet to sharpen a blunt chalaf ( shechitah knife), on various grindstones until it is razor sharp and to inspect it's edge for nicks with his fingernail. The apprentice learns how to perform the act of shechita in itself which involves a swift horizontal cut, backwards and forwards, severing the windpipe, the gullet and two main blood vessels that feed the brain, He learns how to hold the knife correctly so that shechitah can be performed without a pause. The list is about jewish sermons used at each point taken which includes correct pressures whilst saying sermons:
sermons:
Shehyiah
Derasah
Ikur
Simanim
There is nothing other that the cutting of the animals throat and making sure the animal is clean in windpipe and body, markings and bone breakages etc that would bring the animal unfit for Kosher eating.
The apprentice needs two certificates the Hoddah & Kabalah and also a license from the authorities to practice slaughter. For these certificates the Shochet must obtain them from a Baal Horaah that is a Dayan ( rabbinical judge) or other rabbi who decides Halachic questions and is renounded for his expertise in Jewish code of aw in general the laws of Shechitah in particular. This certification involves a character test and an examination of the candidates familiarity with the laws of the Shechitah. Career as a Shochet cannot begin before 18 yrs, also they are constently tested to ensure that they detect the slightest finest nick present in the blade of the chalaf, it is often that a shochet give up his trade as soon as he cannot detect the slightest nick in the chalaf, he often is subjected to re-certification to check that he has not lost the ability to continue as a shochet, as with one slightest blemise in the shochets work would bring the whole community down and contaminate the kosher foods, this can afford to happen to the community.
So with the above, it would be a bit useless in showing or teaching others unless they were jewish and to be trained as a shochet, as sermons are spoken throught the slaughter of the animal and for religious purposes.

DON RUMBELOW:

Donald Rumbelow in his ' Complete Jack the Ripper ' criticised the shochet theory on two main counts, first that many ordianry slaughtermen had skills similar to the shochet, and second, his belief that the ripper strangled his victims before cutting thier throats. He quoted in length from a letter written by a London Slaughterman to the police in October 1888, pointing out the skills possessed by an expert butcher that would qualify him to be the ripper. If anything should have served a wake-up call to the police, it is this letter, which clearly indicated a strong line of enquiry and possibly the best investigative strategy. In any case, it was not suggesting that the ripper killings were ritual murders, simply that the perbatorators techniques was the servant of his criminal ambition. Any knife would do providing it was long enough. My contention was that any ordinary slaughterman posessed all the skills demonstrated by the rippers knife work, while making the point that a shochet had the edge when it came to throat-cutting.

So here we have an example that a Shochet is only good and skilled at throat-cutting, plus all the other bits that a shochet does is religious purposes and sermons are said over checking and cleaning the animal for kosher food sources, there is nothing to suggest that the Shochet knows how to separate bones from a human neck. Also the blood vessels that cut off the feeding to brain, is achieved in an ordianary throat-cut in any case.
Martha Tabram's throat was not cut, Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes throats were cut but does not necessarily point to a person that learned shochet, as an ordinary slaughterman could have done exactly the same, also it is reasonable to assume that it would be easier to pick up any London slaughterman's weld with a butchers knife rather than a shochet reciting sermons and pausing over his slaughter, and perhaps more chickens were used in the shocket's hand? who knows.

[Admin]

Two words. Pub Talk.

Good Advice. This thread is off-topic. If you wish to have a debate on religion, take it to another thread. Comments about what the Jewish eat or don't eat, or what they do in the middle east or other irrelevant topics don't belong on this thread.

[Chava]

Pirate Jack, as a Jew I'm aware that the East End was full of Jews and that a Jew may well have been the Ripper. I have no problems with that idea. And I'd like to make clear that anyone who believes the Ripper to have been Jewish will never be accused of anti-semitism by me or anyone else with an ounce of sense. My New Best Prospect, Blotchy Face doesn't sound particularly Jewish, but then I've got blond cousins!

[Shelley]

The worst things for arguments to fire are ' Religion ' & ' Politics '..............

[Christine]

I think I'll move along from our anti-semitic and ill-informed little pal who knows someone who knew a Jew once.

And I will stick my neck out...and say that I've always thought that the Ripper either was a kosher butcher or had seen kosher butchers in action. It really wouldn't have been difficult to find them.

Gentile butchers have more choice of technique, but would also probably at least have similar techniques to choose from. Honestly though, I think just about everybody in Whitechapel would have had the opportunity to see animals butchered, so I don't think this tells us much.

[Fisherman]

Glenn writes:

"As far as I am concerned, it may be another red herring"

Quite possibly, Glenn.

"(no, don't take out your fishing equipment... )"

Promise! Herring is not exactly my top game anyways....

The best,
Fisherman

[Nothing to see]

Well. We seem to be wandering all over the place on this thread.

Tabram not one of Jack's. 2 weapons not one. I think 2 soldiers IMO. Not Jack. No evidence from Killeen or anyone who was there and saw her to smack you in the face and go 'Oh, this must be Jack'. Coincidence, yes. Timing, yes. Method of death, no. PM ripping, no. That's 50/50 but Jack didn't deviate when he went after the 5. I include Stride and I'm not an expert but she was one of Jack's IMO.

Tabram wasn't. Jack didn't use 2 weapons. He ripped. He tore. He slashed with the blade in the flesh. He didn't only stab.

Not Tabram.

[Fisherman]

Nothing to see writes:

"No evidence from Killeen or anyone who was there and saw her to smack you in the face and go 'Oh, this must be Jack'."

When Killeen tended to Tabram, Jack had not yet been officially born, NTS.

"I include Stride and I'm not an expert but she was one of Jack's IMO."

Many people are of the same meaning, NTS - but not me. I think one must have a list of priorities to work by, and at the very top of that list of mine, it says that any victim that evinces an interest on their killers behalf in the lower abdominal area is a more likely candidate to be Jacks than those who do not.
To have your neck cut was a far more common thing than it was to have your belly opened (there were THREE women who had their necks cut that night, NTS, and two of them had it done to the very bone. Not Stride, though!), and there is nothing per se that urges us to believe that the Rippers neck-cutting was anything but a practicality.

"Jack ... didn't only stab."

Nor did the man who wounded Tabram to her lower abdomen, NTS. By appearances, he cut!

The best,
Fisherman