Ripper Victim?

[Fisherman]

Dan Norder writes:
"I think that tells everyone here all we need to know about your supposed knowledge on the topic."

It tells very little about Glenn, mr Norder - whereas it says a lot about your own good self.
Much as I will leave the factual debate on what we can learn from the Tabram deed, based on forensic evidence and testimony, to Glenn himself, I will take the liberty to put you right on the rest of your ill-mannered post.

It is obvious that your main drive here is to discredit Glenn, by implying that his knowledge and his experience in the fields of criminal history and -psychology is shallow.

Now, if you feel that such criticism is the ideal way to help Casebook form knowledge for everybodys gain, there is nothing much I can do about it. But I would advice you to be more thorough in your own research into matters before you try to employ such tactics. Interestingly, what happens if you are wrong when you point somebody out as exaggerating his research and lying about his precedentia - and I think that´s exactly what you are doing here, wouldn´t you say? - is that such tactics put you in the exact same spot as you wanted to put somebody else: that of one who flings unsubstantiated allegations around him.

Glenn Andersson is, apart from being a good friend of mine, a man who has studied crime, both with a local angle and globally for a number of years. He has published a book on local crime some years ago here in Sweden (if you want that confirmed, you better get a move on, since it has more or less sold out), and he has given numerous lectures on crime-related topics.
When "Efterlyst", a television show on crime, needed expertise, doing a special on the Ripper case last year, Glenn was the one they picked for that role. As you will probably have missed, he is currently in the process of being published with his book on the Ripper case, and that book is being published at the most renowned Swedish publishing house when it comes to matters of history. And that, mr Norder, means that they scrutinize the backgrounds of their authors in a much more thorough way than you have come up with.

Now, if this is not enough for you to allow for publishing a view here on the boards, then I think that you have some serious considerations to do as to your own rights to do so. My suggestion is that you limit yourself here before making bad worse, and stick with the simple topic of Tabram. In telling us that she may well be a Ripper victim, I think you would be right (though I have written no books and given no lectures, I take the chance to let my voice be heard; please tell me if it is a problem as far as you are concerned...?), whereas I think Glenn may well be wrong. This fact, however, is not something I would even think of using to imply lacking knowledge on Glenns behalf. It has not got that kind of leaverage, since it is merely a question of interpretations. And if you had realized that, it could have saved you a very unneccesary post.

Finally, I will say that this substanceless attack of yours on Glenn, by now shown for what it is, is highly reminiscent of your approach to my own work on Stride; foul allegations, left unsubstantiated. I would not resort to too much of that if I were you, since the risk of other posters reading an agenda into it grows with every such effort on your behalf.

Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Yeah Dan. You know what? Those nonsense bits about that I should have 'experience and claiming to be intelligent' is just part of the usual garbage you spill out on each occasion. That's stuff you're continously trying to lay upon me even though I have never claimed such ridiculous things in the first place.
The fact that I don't always rely on experts, doesn't mean that I think of myself as one. But 'obviously' that can't really sink in with you.

At the same time you fail to address and acknowledge the fact that there are serial killers who seem to do things in a manner which displays clear patterns of behaviour that in their main characteristics don't change to a relevant degree. We have examples like Dennis Nielsen, Fred and Rosemary West and the Ipswitch Ripper (always choosing prostitutes, killing by aspyxiation, dumpin the body naked on places that most likely were not the actual crime scene - the only difference is that some appears to have been sexually assaulted, some not) - criminals where we at this point know of no previous crimes of any serious kind that can be viewed as 'trial and error attempts. But of course there are others. In spite of your 'resassurance' from the 'experts' that no serial killer can start off directly with a full blown method without trial and error crimes.

Yes, I dare to refer to myself as a crime historian since I have studied the subject for 20 years and have written two books on the subject (it's not much and shoudn't be seen as impressive but at least it's something) - but hey, does that mean that I know everything or know things better than anyone else? Absolutely not, that is your conclusion and no one elses.
So stop that pathetic nonsense and get back to the topic at hand.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I doubt there were 2 attackers--there's not enough room. It looks like Chapman was attacked where she was found and that is not a big space. Stride in a narrow entranceway. If Kelly was a Ripper victim, she was in a room that was 12' by 12' at most. Again, no room at all. The two of them would have had to continually dance around trying to get their jollies. The only time they really had space would have been Eddowes.

Hi Chava,

As Stan correctly points out, the murder occurred on a staircase landing and there would undoubtedly have been enough room for two offenders. I really don't see the space issue as that much of a problem.
Fact is, that the theory about two offenders is not more unlikely than the thought of one offender changing his weapon in the process.

Whatever's right or wrong here is of course impossible to say, so take your pick.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

So, Killeen´s picture suggests to us that the areas targetted were the breasts, stomach, abdomen and vagina. He speaks not of a rage resulting in the stabs ending up just about anywhere, but of targetted interest areas that are in three out of four cases all closely related to the sexually oriented or reproductive areas of the female body. And I think that the stabs to the groin area, performed after having lifted the skirts, are PRECISELY the kind of wounds that can tell us that the killers agenda stretched beyond killing.

Hi Fisherman,

Thanks for the post earlier.

Now, I find your interpreation of the above quite interestng and I think I see what you're getting at.
However, I am inclined to disagree. As I said earlier, I don't really know what Killeen means when he says 'targetted areas' because in fact every possible organ in the upper body is punctured. To me there isn't any 'targetting' about those 38 wounds. The killer hardly missed anything excpet the arms. But if you rain a number of knife cuts over the breast area, the stomach, the groin, then you as attacker has covered pretty much everything. I fail to see how such a large number of stabs on practially all over the upper body can be seen as 'targetting areas'.
Look at what Killeen says about which organs that were punctures - did the killer actually miss anything? - and how many times and this to me at least suggests quite a random stabbing and not a specific pattern.

Now,just because Killeen doesn't mention anything about rage doesn't mean that rage wasn't the catalyst. Fact remains, that I have hardly come across any case where such numerous occurrences of stabs haven't shown to been a result of uncontrolled rage at the offender. In many ways I think this speaks for itself. Indeed, such overkill often tend to have sexual overtones and I have no problem with the fact that the stabs against the vagina might indicate show some kind of perversity on behalf of the killer. But then again, this is hardly uncommon and it is of course no evidence of that the offender had to be the same man as the Ripper.

That said, the one element that may be considered as more deliberate (and certainly, I agree, unnecessary for the killing of the victim) is the deeper larger wound (which Killeen referred to as made by a bayonet or a dagger).
However, again we are left to personal interpretations here, since we don't know under which circumstances that cut was made.
Was it made by a second offender on the scene who wanted to 'contribute with his bit'? Or did the offender's first knife break from the previous 38 stabs (as we know, it went through alot of fat and tissue and punctured a number of organs).

If he found it necessary to change to a new knife, it could of course be interpreted as 'deliberate' but that depends on the state of mind of the offender at the time. He could very well still have been in a stage of rage and felt that he wasn't finished. Does this make the cut prove an element of 'targetting' to the same length as in the case of the Ripper? I am not so sure.
It is of course tempting to read this cut as a deliberate target against a certain body part, but then again the area that was stabbed with that weapon (if it wasn't the same weapon) could just as well have been a coincidental pick. It is kind of hard to establish with certainty.

In additon, it must be noted that all of the above kind of loses its relevance if we consider the possibility that Tabram fell victim to two offenders and not one. We shouldn't assume with certainty that we are dealing with one single perpetrator.

All the best

[FrankO]

Hi Fisherman,

First, if the killers only goal here was to convert his fury into stabs on her body, then why would he spend time lifting her clothes up, exposing the groin?
...
And I think that the stabs to the groin area, performed after having lifted the skirts, are PRECISELY the kind of wounds that can tell us that the killers agenda stretched beyond killing.

I quite agree with you here. The deliberate lifting of the skirts and inflicting of the 3 inch cut to the private part are the most important aspects that keep me on the fence regarding Tabram being a Ripper victim. What also sticks out to me are the 9 stab wounds to the neck: relatively many stabs (over 23% of the total amount) to a relatively small area.

All the best,
Frank

[Fisherman]

Hi Glenn!

When you write
"I don't really know what Killeen means when he says 'targetted areas' because in fact every possible organ in the upper body is punctured."

...I have to say that what Killeen would have meant is that ALTHOUGH there were numerous stabs to numerous areas, the picture that emerged was one that pointed towards a specific interest in the four areas mentioned. We do not have any mapping of where Tabram was stabbed, and that is a pity. I will venture a guess that there is good reason to believe that such a map would amaze many of us here on Casebook.

"Now,just because Killeen doesn't mention anything about rage doesn't mean that rage wasn't the catalyst. Fact remains, that I have hardly come across any case where such numerous occurrences of stabs haven't shown to been a result of uncontrolled rage at the offender."

Agreed, Glenn. And my own experience of people who have been on the receiving end of a hailstorm of stabs, is that they have been subjected to rage. So the statistics are on your side, no doubt about it. But that does not change the fact that I think that we may well be looking at an exception in Tabrams case.

"We shouldn't assume with certainty that we are dealing with one single perpetrator." Of course not - but my feeling here is that we ARE dealing with just the one guy.

I´ll pick one more thing out of your post, Glenn:
"The killer hardly missed anything except the arms."

Almost correct, I think. None of us knows, since we have not the total tally accounted for. But the arms seem to have suffered no stabs, and I would say that the same thing seems to go for the hands, the head, the shoulders and the legs below the groin area feet included.
To me, this suggests very clearly that the killer was not dealing with a victim that wriggled under the stabs. If so, she would in all probability have screamed, and she would probably try to fend the stabs off, perhaps resulting in defense wounds on her hands and arms. But there was nothing such to be seen on the body, and not a sound was heard of any struggle or panic. Why?

You know my answer to it: Because Tabram was unconcious as she received her stabs, making no resistance at all. This would have been the outcome of either her having been suffocated, or of the blow she had received to her head.
So no need for the killer to fight with her, if I am correct. She was lying still on the landing, and he could pick and choose where he wanted the knife to sink in. And THAT - as opposed to rage and victims fighting back - may well lend itself to an outcome where a doctor sees a clear pattern of targetted areas.
And just as you are right that the possibility of two killers effectively cools down the aspirations of putting Jack forward as her killer, a scenario with a killer bringing two different weapons on the stage and using them in a very deliberate manner, heats that suggestion up again.

The best, Glenn!
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Fisherman,

An interesting post as usual.
I think, however, that you are making too big a deal out of the fact that the arms lacked any stabs. As I recall from other cases, arms are seldom subject to attack anyway so that actually shows us nothing. Could be that they simply are harder to hit if you're in a excited state. The breasts, abdomen etc. contain more tissue and fat and thus instinctively becomes the natural area to plunge the knife into. Thus one shouldn't be surprised over the fact that the shoulders and arms weren't subject to attack, because they seldom are.

We must aslo consider the possibility, that the arms were covered by clothing while the killer had better access to the abdomen, breasts and vagina if he lifted up the clothes of the victims.
In addition, if the crime was centered around some kind of sexual perversity, then there would be no reason for the perpetrator to attack the arms and shoulders. In such case, one can of course argue that this in turn would point at some kind of deliberate targetting.
But on the other hand, such selective process during the attack doesn't really contradict the behaviour of someone in rage. Even a person in a state of rage, frustration or excitment can instinctively pick certain areas without thinking about why. No doubt it is easy to read more into things than what they really are.

Again - I fail to see how a puncture of every possible internal organ (heart, liver, spleen etc) and a total shower of stabs on the whole part of the upper body added with the groin would indicate any real evidence of 'targetting'. The only aspect of 'targetting' I can see is that the upper and frontal body was singled out from the whole body, but personally, I think that is what I would expect from any murderer that produeces overkill in a state of uncontrolled excitment or anger. In some cases even the throats (because of easy accessivity) and the face (becaue of a lust to destory the victim's personality) is evident. In any case I wouldn't dare to go as far as suggesting that it can be compared to the Ripper's focus on the lower abdominal area where the womb was situated.
I have to admit: to me the Tabram murder does not look especially different or show any other characteristics that departs from other murders committed by a perpetrator who's gone berserk in a state of rage by using multiple stabbing. I simply think people are seeing things here that doesn't exist. That' however, doesn't mean that I couldn't be wrong about this. But such reasoning just seem a bit of a stretch to me.

I would also be careful about (and this is also important when we discuss the murder weapon[s]) overanalyzing the points delivered by Killeen. Killeen had only been a professional for a couple of years before the murder and he was definitely no police surgeon - nor did he have any experience from similar tasks. No doubt we must take in consideration that any modern, professional police surgeon today might deliver an analysis that would differ completely from the one that Killeen did if they had access to the corpse and the crime scene. In fact, it is even possible that more experienced people like Phillips, Blackwell and Brown might have made deductions that would differ greatly from Killeen's.

All the best, Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Glenn!

Starting form the last point you make, I fully agree that it can be reasoned that Killeen may not have been a medico of Blackwells and Phillips´quality. For example, he describes what must have been a cut to theabdomen as a stab. Three inches long and inch-deep; that is no stab, whichever way you look upon it.
Still, Killeen is what we have and we must therefore make do with him, I feel. And when it comes to him being of the meaning that there WAS a specific targetting of breasts, vagina, abdomen and stomach, then it stands to reason that the body displayed a sight that lent itself to make this interpretation. If the wounds had all been scattered at random, he would not have had any reason to make his remark, and in all honesty, I think that any doctor happening upon a body that has been subjected to a flurry of stabs such as Tabram, would have started out with the suspicion that rage was the underlying factor - and rage is more probable to result in a chaotic, patternless number of stabs, than in something that leads the thoughts to a deliberate targetting of specific areas. To reach that point, I think that Killeen would have thought twice about things.

As for the lack of stabs to Tabrams extremities, you are of course right; a perpetrator stabbing away at will, would be more inclined to go for torso than for arms and legs.
But that is not the point I try to make here What I am after is the fact that a woman fighting furiously for her life will not prove a placid target. She will try and roll out of danger, and she will try to fend of the attack. Thus she will not offer an easy target for somebody intent on hitting just the torso. Out of 39 stabs, I think it more than reasonable that some of them would have ended up in her arms if there was a struggle.
On the other hand, if there was no struggle at all, since Tabram had been subdued and rendered unconscious before he took out the knife/knives, it would be a very easy task to target specific areas, puncture organs and stab at the neck and groin, turning each and every one of the stabs accounted for a meaningful one, either piercing vital organs or ending up in the throat or groin area.
Now, Glenn, I know that you have seen a fair number of stabbings in your day. But apart from Tabram, have you ever seen anything remotely like her, when it comes to the outcome of the stabbing? I have seen a few myself, and I tell you, in each case there has been stabs that have ended up piercing fat and muscles but causing no lethal harm, stabs that have hit the bone structure, stabs to the hands and stabs to the shoulders, stabs that have ripped through the skin, but caused more of a tear than a puncture, stabs, that is, that have had no other explanation than being dealt sloppily or as the victim have moved, stabs with no apparent significant goal.
But with Tabram, they all seem to have been delivered with an address! Pierced lungs and liver, pierced stomach, pierced heart, pierced spleen, nine stabs in the neck, a number of them to the groin. All of them dealt with something that, if we are to believe Killeen, would have been a long and slender blade.

Now, I know very well that a killer may hack away at a lifeless body in rage. Theres no need for the victim to live to ensure rage. But I also know that rage is a state where you have lost control of yourself. And the way I read Tabrams wounds, this guy did not loose control, not even for a split second.

And I say, that if you deliver one stab in rage against somebody, the chance is always there that it may hit straight in the heart. Deliver two, and yes, you can get lucky and hit the spleen AND the heart. Three? Perhaps you can come up with a spleen, liver and heart-combination. But with each stab, you move further away from the possibility of getting them all right if they are delivered in rage. And getting 39 of them on target, apparently each and every one of them, that does not take luck - it requires skill and cool calculating.

And the more I think about it, the more I become convinced that what was said about Tabram - that among all the gruesome deaths of the East end, hers stood out as something very particular and vicious – owed to the fact that the Tabram killing evinced an amount of evil deliberation that is not to be found in deeds caused by rage.

The best, Glenn!
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hello Fisherman!

Now, Glenn, I know that you have seen a fair number of stabbings in your day. But apart from Tabram, have you ever seen anything remotely like her, when it comes to the outcome of the stabbing? I have seen a few myself, and I tell you, in each case there has been stabs that have ended up piercing fat and muscles but causing no lethal harm, stabs that have hit the bone structure, stabs to the hands and stabs to the shoulders, stabs that have ripped through the skin, but caused more of a tear than a puncture, stabs, that is, that have had no other explanation than being dealt sloppily or as the victim have moved, stabs with no apparent significant goal.
But with Tabram, they all seem to have been delivered with an address! Pierced lungs and liver, pierced stomach, pierced heart, pierced spleen, nine stabs in the neck, a number of them to the groin. All of them dealt with something that, if we are to believe Killeen, would have been a long and slender blade.

Now, I know very well that a killer may hack away at a lifeless body in rage. Theres no need for the victim to live to ensure rage. But I also know that rage is a state where you have lost control of yourself. And the way I read Tabrams wounds, this guy did not loose control, not even for a split second.

And I say, that if you deliver one stab in rage against somebody, the chance is always there that it may hit straight in the heart. Deliver two, and yes, you can get lucky and hit the spleen AND the heart. Three? Perhaps you can come up with a spleen, liver and heart-combination. But with each stab, you move further away from the possibility of getting them all right if they are delivered in rage. And getting 39 of them on target, apparently each and every one of them, that does not take luck - it requires skill and cool calculating.

Of course I have seen stab victims like Tabram, where the offenders have been quite drunk or influenced by narchotics. But my point is that with so many stab wounds piercing through the breasts and abdomin you can't really fail as a perpetrator in puncturing all those organs. You see, while you see a deliberate selection of areas for the offender to hit, I see the complete opposite. If you stab a torso 38 times, you can't really miss piercing through the liver, the lungs, the spleen and the heart (also, if you attack the breasts, you will also get a fair chance of penetrating the heart).

In addition, your scenario would infer that the offender in question produced each stab with some kind of pattern or deliberation in mind, something that I find extremely unlikely in connection with a multiple stab murder involving overkill. It just doesn't fit and I would find that quite extraordinary.
So yes, you or I may be wrong here, but personally I stick to the rather obvious explanation, that a murder involving multiple stabs of such high number (and which in itself is a type of overkill) simply is a result of uncontrolled rage. Except for the additional larger wound through the sternum (which I admit continue to bother me, although it may have different explanations), I don't see any indications of a design that departs from what I've seen on any other victims of similar character, and which all have been perpetrated in rage or possibly sexual excitement.
Even in a state of 'uncontrolled rage' and disorganization it is of course possible to select areas instinctively, especially if the murder is triggered by sexual perversity. It's not really black and white.

Again, just my personal view, but the alternative seem quite difficult to accept on my part.

As for the movements of the victim in order for the perpetrator to pierce through organs succesfully (although I believe this wasn't his main intent), it has always been my view that Tabram was either unconscious or subdued in some way and lying still on the ground when she was stabbed. If this wasn't the case, no doubt more noises would be heard and the crime scene would indicate more sign of a struggle. If we can rely on the information about her hands being clenched, then it's possible she had passed out in some way but was still alive.
Tabram was also a large woman and might have had difficulties moving about. I would say that she would have been quite drunk considering the bar hopping earlier that night - if so, then she would have been quite easy to subdue and it wouldn't take much for her to pass out. So no, I don't think she was moving about or tried to defend herself. No doubt this struggle would have been picked up by the environment or leave traces of this on the crime scene. And - as you correctly imply - we would see accidental cuts and hackings on arms and hands.
And of course, if the perpetrators were two people then the other might have been subduing her while the other stabbed her. Not without risk for injuries, but I have seen it happen so one can't rule it out 100%.

But who knows? We're all pretty much left in the dark regarding many aspects of this murder and indeed one wish we had a better access to more appropriate documentation or crime scene accounts that would give us a better understanding of the killer's behaviour and what the crime scene really looked like. Not to mention a crime scene photo - Killeen's accounts is unfortuantely not really telling us enough.

All the best

[Fisherman]

This, Glenn, is where our respective views differ:

You write
"But my point is that with so many stab wounds piercing through the breasts and abdomin you can't really fail as a perpetrator in puncturing all those organs. "

...and that of course makes a lot of sense. But what I am saying is not that some of these organs ought to have gone through it all without being punctured (though I would not find such a claim anything but a valid one). What I am saying is that at least some of the wounds should have been aimless ones, perhaps bouncing off a bone, or piercing just some flesh or layers of fat that did not hold any vital organ.
I am not opposed to an enraged killer hitting most of the organs inside a victim if he comes up with 39 stabs - but I am opposed to him doing so WITH EVERY SINGLE THRUST OF THE KNIFE. That is where coincidence is put out of play and deliberation enters the scene, as far as I´m concerned, Glenn. Though we have no full account of where the stabs ended up, we do have a mapping that points either to the luckiest fire-away stabber in the East end - or a deliberate killer, targetting specific areas on the body of his victim.

I see we´re agreed on the point of her being subdued/unconscious before the knife attack, however. And I think that has to be counted in before the verdict of Ripper deed/No Ripper deed is delivered. For it took only a few weeks after Tabram for a killer to emerge, whose trademark involved using his knife on a victim who was beyond defense.

The best, Glenn!
Fisherman

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hello again, Fisherman!

Yes, I certainly understand where you're coming from and I see your point, no question. I would expect some occasional, superficial cuts as well, just penetrating the fat.
That being said, I tend to attribute that either to coincidence (stranger things have happened) or that Killeen simply didn't record any minor, superficial cuts. I have loads of problems with someone stabbing a victim 39 times, and doing that in a manner that would indicate planning and deliberate targetting to such a degree, like 'OK, now I am going to pierce the spleen five times...etc..' It simply just doesn't fit a multiple stab murder and it would certainly be the first time I have come across such a scheme in such a context. I am not saying it's impossible, only that I find it really hard to swallow from my personal point of view.
So I guess we simply have to agree to disagree on that one.

As for the Tabram being subdued or made unconscious, I don't see that as especially spectacular or as evidence of a ripper killing. No doubt such an approach is not uncommon and as I said, Tabram - with her physical constitution - wouldn't be a very difficult victim to subdue or render unconscious, especially if she was drunk - it would hardly require the efforts of a serial killer in the making, only a male possessing some degree of strength (like a soldier maybe...?).

But again - who knows?

All the best

[Fisherman]

I think your advice to agree to disagree on it is by far the best way to end this discussion, Glenn.
The interesting thing here is that though we may be viewed as being very far from each other, I do not think that we are. Small changes in the evidence material could probably have swayed both of us to some significant degree, I think.
But as it stands, I will opt for your closing sentence as being a wise one; who knows, indeed?

The best, Glenn!
Fisherman

[robhouse]

I have always felt that any discussion of Tabrams inclusion or exclusion as a victim of the Ripper should at least reference the very well argued dissertation on the subject by Quentin L Pittman on this site

http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/dst-recanon.html

The main arguments for including Tabram are:
time of attack consistent with other victims
victimology consistent
position of body
target of attacks essentially consistent

The ripper's throat cutting is in the category of M.O.; in other words, the throat cutting is the method of killing the victim in order to get to the real focus of the killer, i.e. mutilation of the body. As has been discussed, M.O can change, and this is especially the case in a serial killer's early victims. As Peter Vronsky has discussed in his book " Serial Killers: The Method and Madness of Monsters", the first murder is often committed with either an inappropriate weapon for the task (in this case a "pen-knife") or even just by some weapon that is picked up, and at-hand (like a 2 x 4 for example). Often the killer will go out hunting, or taking is fantasy for a walk, and bring no weapon at all. This has been discussed in detail.

If Tabram was a JTR victim, then the likely scenario is that the killer strangled her to a state of unconsciousness or semi-consciousness, then stabbed her to death. Note, there were approximately 9 stabs to the throat. The other stabs are directed largely towards the abdomen and the groin... in other words, the majority of the "over-kill" mutilation is consistent with the Ripper's later mutilation in terms of the area targeted. As Pittman says "The breast, stomach, abdomen, and vaginal regions were the primary areas assaulted, with a deep wound penetrating the heart, and another penetrating the womb area above the vaginal region." This is consistent with an escalating of the mutilation, ie. a consistent signature. The signature may vary superficially (stabs and overkill vs. later mutilation) but it is essentially consistent (destruction of the abdomen, breasts, sex organs). The change in MO (he switches to throat cutting) indicates that he learned that the method of killing was inefficient in the Tabram murder.

Rob House

[Sam Flynn]

the majority of the "over-kill" mutilation is consistent with the Ripper's later mutilation in terms of the area targeted.

Hi Rob,

From my reading of the evidence, fully 30 - or possibly 31 - of the 39 wounds can be accounted for by those to the throat, breast, chest and upper abdomen. If there was overkill, it was evident in the nine wounds to Tabram's neck, a total that is completely OTT unless he was planning at some stage to "cut along the dotted line".

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Quentin Pittman's dissertation about Tabram is indeed a very interesting and well argumented one, which gives food for thought in many respects.
However, I find some of the deductions slightly questionable and personally I fail to be convinced about the the stabs on the neck developing into cutting of the throat. To me this is not the same thing, and I think it's downplaying the importance of the throat cuts made the Ripper. The Ripper's throat cuts were of extreme character, almost as deep as they nearly severed the head, and to me this indicates something of far more significance and a part of the Ripper's indentical mark just as much as the abdominal mutilation. If this means they would be regarded as a part of the signature as well as the MO can of course be debated. But they definitely went far beyond what was necessary for killing the victim.
That is partly my problem. I simply don't see any credible link between cuts towards the neck (especially since there cuts/stabs towards other parts of the frontal body as well) and severe throat cuts.

I also find it questionable to compare the massive stabs towards the frontal upper body and the groin by referring to them as 'targetted areas'. If practically every important part of the upper frontal body is pierced by stab wounds, it seems a bit far-fetched to refer to them as 'targetted' and compare them to the Ripper's very clear focus to the area of the genitals and lower abdomen.

It doesn't mean that it couldn't happen - sure, the Ripper could have dropped the idea of attacking the breasts and to limit his target area - but in my view the Ripper's target spots are far more defined and purely concentrated to the part of the genitals and lower abdomen, and from Nichols onwards there also seem to be a genuine intent to open up the abdomen for different reasons - an intent that there are no evidence of whatsoever in connection with Tabram, regardless of the deep 39th cut.
I simply don't find the connection or the arguments convincing, especially since we are faced with a switch or 'development'that is supposed to have evolved during a three week period.

But my main reason for most likely excluding Tabram has to be based on the evidence of PC Barrett and his encounter of a soldier at the right place at the right time, just a few minuted before the murder is supposed to have occurred (according to Killeen). Especially since we know that Tabram as well as Pearly Poll appear to have served such clients earlier that night and most probably had on previous occasions, although that particular one doesn't necessarily need to be one of those that Pearly Poll described.
To me this is far more significant to the context and from an investigative point of view than any medical/psychological arguments, although I am sure some finds it less significant.

But I agree that a discussion about Tabram certainly should include the arguments put forward in Pittman's dissertation so thanks to Rob House for putting our attention to it.

All the best