overkill

[Ben]

Hi Lozle,

JTR was out for the thrill, if he wasn't then he would have done his acts in a more private place than in the street or where he wouldnt be disturbed

Ah, but this assumes the killer had the luxury of choice in this regard. If he lived in crowded conditions, like many residents in the district, he wouldn't have had the option to dispatch his victim indoors, in private. By killing on the streets, he may well have been making the most of his only option. Fundamentally, there's no compelling evidence that "the thrill" had any impact whatsoever in the consistency of his technique, and history is littered with many more examples of serial killers who alter their methods in response to their public reaction than it is of serial killers who deliberately maintain consistency to impress.

For all we know, the killer may have considered indoor locations to be vastly preferable if only they were available, which they probably weren't. That said, #29 Hanbury Street and #13 Miller's Court were no less secluded than the Tabram location.

You have your own opinion which I admire as too many people conform to anothers ideas. Though I would still argue this murder happened spur of the moment due to something affecting the dynamics of 2 (or more) slightly drunk / merry people going back to an "Unfortunates" room.

I agree, that's entirely possible, but many serials are kick-started by such occurances. It isn't always a case of serial killers planning meticulous campaigns which they carry out to the letter. Many serialists will be responsible for both "frenzied" and "controled" murders, as Canter's observations demonstrate. The differences between the two mindsets can be explained away very easily on the basis that the killer was less experienced when the attacks were frenzied.

I think we need to be a bit careful in attributing Tabram's death to a "personal grudge". A frenzied attack can just as easily be reflective of inexperience, or, in my personal view, a high degree of frustration that at least two earlier victims had survived his knife attack.

the ways the 5canonical were murdered in a specific way. the throat was slit to keep them quiet, they were opened so he could get trophies

But that only occured in three of the five "canonicals", and the attack on one of them was certainly no less frenzied that the bruality exacted on Tabram.

All the best,
Ben

[Lozle]

Can't believe that crossed my mind. Good thinking. That could also explain how quickly his technique became so polished (especially from Polly to Annie).

Hi,

Well, that was my thinking... having thought it out to such an extent he didn't need to practise or inflict a frenzied overkill attack on Martha Tabram to decide whether he liked killing that way or not.

Cheers.=oD
Many thanks.

[Lozle]

Hey,


"I agree, that's entirely possible, but many serials are kick-started by such occurances. It isn't always a case of serial killers planning meticulous campaigns which they carry out to the letter. Many serialists will be responsible for both "frenzied" and "controled" murders, as Canter's observations demonstrate. The differences between the two mindsets can be explained away very easily on the basis that the killer was less experienced when the attacks were frenzied."


Note: "the killer was less experienced when the attacks were frenzied" .... and where would he have gained experience between Martha and Polly's murder as there is a dramatic difference between the 2murders. Frenzied to calm - quite a transformation, one which I find hard to grasp. If you know of any other serial murderers who went from inexperienced and frenzied, to "experienced", calm and controlled in ONE murder, then please do share.


I am more than willing to address the possibility that such an incident encountered with the killer and Martha triggered the JTR rampage whether it be the same killer OR someone who seized an opportunity.

However, the matter of Martha being seen with 2soldiers and one lingering in the area of the discovered body saying he was waiting for his mate does provide a convicing arguement if considering the anomolies between the killings and etewitness testimony.

"A frenzied attack can just as easily be reflective of inexperience, or, in my personal view, a high degree of frustration that at least two earlier victims had survived his knife attack."

If the murderer was in fact JTR, why would they have survived? JTR always finsihed his work... unless the 2 you're speaking of and who got away were JTR victims of course...

Many thanks.

[Sam Flynn]

But it does, Sam. Both Tabram and Nichols received one, possibly two cuts or stabs to the privates.

True, Jon, but Tabram received no major cuts to speak of, and thirty-eight stabs to her upper body. Unless her killer suffered a momentary lapse that caused him to forget the difference between North and South, it strikes me that his focus was entirely different to the Ripper's - indeed, as one might say, its "polar opposite"

[Jane Welland]

Thanks Shelley..

It doesn't take a Genius to know that if you ' stab & puncture ' it won't provide a way for you to obtain an organ that you need to fulfill the ' fantasy ' as you put it Jane.

I didn't realise we knew what the Ripper's fantasy was when he killed his victims - shows what I know, doesn't it?

Jane x

[Sam Flynn]

Why was Tabram's skirts turned upwards? Well, in a struggle ?

More likely, because she had prepared herself for intercourse in the moments before she was killed.

[Shelley]

Sam, Exactly! Even so, with that ferocious attack her skirts could have got in the way.....anyway! And who knows with unknowledgeable crime scene witness, the first at the crime scene to sound an alarm, in the dark & stumbling upon a body? Who knows, it just maybe a coincidental accident & means nothing at all, after all.


Jane, Well i would say JTR pretty much showed himself with that on Annie Chapman don't you think? And with Nicholls it's perfectly reasonable to conclude with her abdomen ' cut open ' that he had the same idea as that with Annie & Kate. I'm surprised that you skipped the ' overhand ' & ' underhand ' style between Tabram & Nicholls. With Nicholls, Chapman & Eddowes all had the style of ' Underhand ' which are 3 of the canocials that are different from Tabram. Now Jane to me that is a continuance of MO & Signature. An added thought is that JTR wasn't one to draw attention to himself either.

[Shelley]

Timings

Also Jane, don't forget the time duration of Tabram to Nicholls = 3 weeks
Also Jane don't forget the time durations between Nicholls & Chapman = 1 week. Clearly a case of 1 week time duration that Jack didn't get the womb he wanted from Nicholls, so 1 week later got it from Chapman. JTR still had the ' fantasy ' as you describe it Jane 3 weeks later in the case of Kate, as he took her womb as well.

[Jon Guy]

More likely, because she had prepared herself for intercourse in the moments before she was killed.

Possibly, Sam, but the murderer could have done it, we know for fact he stabbed her under her skirt, and Polly Nichols didn`t raise her own skirts.

[Shelley]

Jon, i beg to differ on the subject of Nicholls, she may or may not have lifted her own skirts, however it was the witness Robert Paul who admitted to pulling Nicholls skirts down. So you should be able to understand my statement of first witnesses on the crime scene, who knows what they may or may not have tampered with, either with being aware or not. It is a shock to find a dead body for anyone.

[Sam Flynn]

Possibly, Sam, but the murderer could have done it, we know for fact he stabbed her under her skirt, and Polly Nichols didn`t raise her own skirts.

I'm not so sure on that latter point, Jon, for two reasons. One scenario is that it's possible that she had raised her own skirts, but Jack himself pulled them back down again (e.g. in panic/disgust/whatever). Alternatively, and perhaps more likely, Polly was attacked whilst not preparing for intercourse - in which Jack would have lifted the skirts without her help.

With Tabram, however, the "serving a punter" scenario is arguably the more likely, given the location and her known behaviour earlier that night. That being the case, it's easier to justify the idea that it was Tabram herself who lifted her skirts.

[Shelley]

Ok Sam, with the above post, Good points about Tabram's preparation of her ' lifting her own skirts ' as witnesses said she had gone with a punter.

[Fisherman]

Mmmm, and of course all of this predisposes that both Nichols and Tabram had agreed to having sex lying down on their backs, one in the street and the other on a landing, both venues being more or less pitch dark.

I am having serious trouble with that suggestion - as usual.

The best, all
Fisherman

[FrankO]

True, Jon, but Tabram received no major cuts to speak of, and thirty-eight stabs to her upper body.

That makes that single wound in that particular area all the more telling, Gareth. The sudden and fierce rage was vented impulsively on one part of the body (the upper body). The single wound on the private part clearly doesn't fit with this.

Cheers,
Frank

[Shelley]

Mmmm, and of course all of this predisposes that both Nichols and Tabram had agreed to having sex lying down on their backs, one in the street and the other on a landing, both venues being more or less pitch dark.

I am having serious trouble with that suggestion - as usual.

The best, all
Fisherman

Fisherman,

Well i can take your point on ' on thier backs ' and the sex bit, as we don't know if Nicholls did propsition for sex, but she could have to get some ' doss money ' and her earlier retort of her new bonnet, but after an attack they are not going to be still standing upright are they. Both Tabram and Nicholls could have lifted thier own skirts, but again there isn't anything we can really read into it, as anything could have happened. All we do know is that in order for JTR to have ' cut open ' Nicholls abdomen it is most likely that he did some skirt lifting in order to do this, but with Tabram her wounding was administered through the clothing. You are entitled to suppose that Tabram was a JTR victim, but to my knowledge that would only be based on a 2 man senario & theory only.