overkill

[Ben]

Hi Lozle,

The killer wouldn't have needed anything like a "matter of weeks" to come up with the idea of changing from stabbing* to slash/stabbing. He wouldn't have required five minutes, even. The Zodiac killer, who had exhibited an otherwise remarkably consistent method of dispatching his victims, proved perfectly capable of "changing" to a far more significant extent, and over a very similar time frame to Tabram-Nichols. I don't believe any evidence suggests the Tabram murder was any more "personal" than her successors, nor would I characterize the attack as especially "clumsy".

All the best,
Ben

*Albeit stabs that also included a "cut", as others have pointed out.

[Lozle]

Hi again,

Hello Ben,

I must have been mistakenly led to believe that most serial killers are more often than not, meticulous in their choice of methods and killings.

My primary observation in this is that THIS murder on Martha Tabram does not correlate with the apparent interrelated 5canonical victims that occured later. For example, in the murder of Martha Tabram, the concern seemed on killing, not taking anything as a trophy. Victims such as Annie Chapman for one example, had an organ taken. The Ripper victims were dispatched in a dettached manner, set out with a plan of what to do and what to take. JTR seems a "conscientious student". Every step planned. Martha Tabram's murder does not indicate such control and organisation.

Admittedly there is no evidence of a personal vendetta, but it certain appears that way. Stabbing includes being close to the individual, having the rage behind yourself to inflict such wounds, whether deep or not. someone clear minded would have a bit of a difficult time stabbing someone 39 times. there is nothing lucid, objective, dettached or controlled about stabbing someone again and again 39times. JTR's slashing of the throat and meticulously opening the victims and actively taking an organ suggests a certain lucid and controlled trait.

Many thanks.

[Ben]

Hi Lozle,

There is often a temptation to overstate the "meticulous" nature of JTR's crimes. He certainly became more so as he progressed, but that's not to say he started out as a ready-made product. More likely, he alighted on abdominal mutilations and trophy-taking as a result of exploration. There's no evidence of any designs on Mary Nichols' organs either. He apparently decided upon eviscerations next time around, and liked it enough to stick with, just as he did with the facial mutilations, and the same could well have been true of the stabbing-to-slashing transition, or the focus on the abdominal region.

They could all have been the result of discovery, rather than a meticulously prepared fantasy.

As for the apparent contrast in the level of control between the Tabram attack and later murders, I fully agree, but that is to be expected when comparing the early and later crimes of a single offender. David Canter refers to two examples:

"Duffy's career in crime is a graphic example of a man whose initial actions are casual and unsophisticated, but who is later able to take an overview of what he was doing and plan his crimes in some detail...

(Jeffrey Dahmer's) first murder was a sudden unplanned outburst, but he eventually developed a procedure for finding and drugging his victims."

The above from Criminal Shadows.

All the best,
Ben

[Lozle]

Hi again,

Well, I can fully accept that, as for a while, I myself have been a bit conflicted as to whether the murderer of Martha Tabram and the apparent interrelated 5canonical victims were one and the same. I agree that in fact Tabram's murder could have been an "accidental" start / a sudden outburst and he / she proceeded to kill and "tweak" their methods.

But what you are suggesting implies he went from an disorganised murderer to an organised murderer (in the case from Martha to Polly) which is entirely logical and acceptable... however there is a rather big jump from organised murderer to an almost surgically skillful murderer in locating and taking the organs (Martha to Polly to Annie)...

And IF we are positive that ALL 5canonical victims and Martha Tabram were all killed by one and the same, the methodology, in fact, does seem to evolve.

However, JTR became a nationwide murdering prodigy, I doubt with nationwide fame and with the actual murders indicating that he was "working" that he would risk changing his methodology too much so it was possible for the murderer to take credit for another killing. I imagine JTR would be more concerned with maintaining his signature and for it to be published nationwide as it is blatantly obvious that these killings were not private. It is my belief the media fed, promoted and gave the opportunity for such crimes to occur.

- I say "working" and not doing it purely for pleasure because it appears he was concerned with delivering a message of some kind. The killer would not think to surgically remove organs because he would enjoy it and because he had bags of time behind him. He was risking his life and "hobby" carrying out the 1888 murders. If it were for pleasure, I would have thought someone would just kill their chosen victim... and maybe go as far as mutilating the victim... not remove organs and disfigure them as women in some way...

Unless it were different people committing the crimes from Martha Tabram and the 5canonical victims. One person killing, someone else killing whilst surgically removing organs and mutilating their victims, and one other person killing and surgically removing femanine organs with no mutilations.

If this were one and the same person, for the cases from Martha, Polly, Annie, Liz, Kate and Mary Kelly then they demonstrate unstable methods spiraling from one extreme to the other from the first murder to the last AND inbetween.

Many thanks.

[Shelley]

Originally by Sam Flynn: ' Let's face it - a single cut three inches in length doesn't begin tocompare with what Jackdid to Nicholls a few weeks later.

But it does, Sam. Both Tabram and Nichols received one, possibly two cuts or stabs to the privates.

Jon, i think what Sam is trying to say, is that it has been mentioned before several times, that this cut to Tabram's ' parivate parts ' could well have been an accident from the fercocious attack of numerous stabbings, where the blade slipped, i think Sam ( and he'll correct me if i'm wrong perhaps), is saying, that in the case of Nicholls she was subdued and her throat cut, Nicholls was dead already before any cuts to her private part and abdomen had been administered to her corpse and no where near the fercocity of an attack and struggle from one victim to the other victim. Tabram on the other hand was alive whilst wounds and a cut was delivered upon her. With Emma Smith she also had a cut to her private part whilst she was alive, as she didn't die until around two days later after her injuries. So far I don't see anyone arguing that Smith was a JTR victim.

[Ben]

Hi Lozle,

The Tabram murder might well have been frenzied, but there was nothing inherently disorganized about it. The location was arguably more secluded than those of the "canonical" murders, and the killer's apparent ability to dispatch the victim without creating any noise hardly points towards a "disorganized" approach. Nor would I describe the later murders as "surgically skillful". Whilst Phillips may have claimed to have detected evidence of surgical skill, the preponderance of medical evidence did not indicate a professionally-trained assailant.

There's no compelling evidence that the killer deliberately targetted specific organs either.

I don't think the killer was ever interested in maintaining a strict rigidity of technique in order to impress the public. On the contrary, there are several examples of serial killers who deliberately altered their methods (and even weapons) through fear of being tracked down. Peter Sutcliffe even made alterations because he was frustrated at being continually labelled "the ripper"!. I'm personally unenthusiastic about the idea that the killer, in this case, was primarily concerned with performing to a crowd or delivering a message to society. Most serial killers are chiefly interested in their own strictly personal gratification. Andrei Chikatilo removed organs and even gnawed on a uterus, but out of apparent biological curiosity, and not to make a public impact.

Best regards,
Ben

[Jane Welland]

Hi Shelley

I think I understand the arguments for and against Tabram being included with the other accepted Ripper victims, and yes, clearly there are distinctions to be made. I think personally that Tabram was probably a Ripper victim, because I see similarities and believe that a serial killer progresses with each kill - in fact, I don't see how anything else is really possible, since each kill presumably fulfills his/her fantasy, and once fulfilled, it must itself progress in order to remain meaningful in that its fulfillment endows the killer with power. If that makes sense. I wonder if in the transition from Tabram to Nicholls, JTR found that a live victim wasn't to his liking, and thus tried killing more quickly. Maybe a struggling, dying woman bleeding all over him wasn't in the fantasy.

Jane x

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley

I think I understand the arguments for and against Tabram being included with the other accepted Ripper victims, and yes, clearly there are distinctions to be made. I think personally that Tabram was probably a Ripper victim, because I see similarities and believe that a serial killer progresses with each kill - in fact, I don't see how anything else is really possible, since each kill presumably fulfills his/her fantasy, and once fulfilled, it must itself progress in order to remain meaningful in that its fulfillment endows the killer with power. If that makes sense. I wonder if in the transition from Tabram to Nicholls, JTR found that a live victim wasn't to his liking, and thus tried killing more quickly. Maybe a struggling, dying woman bleeding all over him wasn't in the fantasy.

Jane x

Jane, i do think it boils down to some people would like to believe that Tabram was a ripper victim, for one reason or another, but i for one do not see that Tabram has anything solid to be put into that canocial list of a JTR victim, the fact remains that Tabram was stabbed numerous times and ferocicously with it, which indicates a ' frenzied ' and ' emotion ' based rageful attack. We all know that Tabram was attacked with a blade and it would seem 2 blades, where as Nicholls was attacked with 1 blade. Tabram was punctured and it appears that blade strokes went in at an ' overhand ' method of weilding the blade, which would & could explain why a ' cut ' to Tabram's private part was an accident. However with Nicholls, the blade was weilded in an ' upperhand ' stroke which shows a different useage & a different killer, on top of the facts that Tabram was still alive whilst being attacked to that of Nicholls who was dead when she was ' ripped open '. It doesn't take a Genius to know that if you ' stab & puncture ' it won't provide a way for you to obtain an organ that you need to fulfill the ' fantasy ' as you put it Jane. Also to say that killers progress with each kill is not true, there is a time period for further adaptions, but the killers ' fantasies ' remain the same throughout his kills, it doesn't change. Also if a killer is comfortable with his MO and has success in it, he keeps that for a while too.

[Jon Guy]

Hi Shelley

I`ll concede the point that, as you say, the lower wound to Tabram was just a slip during a frenzied attack in the dark.

But, if it were just a slip during an attack on her upper torso and neck why were her skirts turned upwards?

[Shelley]

Historical Serial Killers & Lack of technologies

The fact remains that Jack the Ripper was an Historical serial killer, where lack of DNA evidence and other technologies such as fingerprinting were lacking amongst the many we have today for forensic evidence. Some modern serial killers have changed thier MO and attempted to disgusie thier tracks with adaptions to confuse ' forensics ', JTR's time period had no such priviledges, as there was not any modern techologies towards foresnsic evidence to catch him, so i think it is irrelevant to use some modern serial killers in comparision with JTR.

[Shelley]

Hi Jon,

Why was Tabram's skirts turned upwards? Well, in a struggle ? what do you think?

Another point , why was Nicholls skirts turned down?

[Jon Guy]

Possibly in a struggle, but these were long skirts, of a heavy material.

Nichols skirt was turned down because one of the guy`s who found her did it to protect her modesty.

[Lozle]

Hello,

I agree, the murderer's primary concern WAS NOT performing to a crowd, what I'm saying is the crowd, the publicity, the notoriety, was part of the "game", something that happened by chance and which gave him more of a thrill as JTR - at that time - was the first big publicised serial killer, encouraging him to carry on and maintain a signature. JTR was out for the thrill, if he wasn't then he would have done his acts in a more private place than in the street or where he wouldnt be disturbed. Seeming as Marth Tabram was killed in a more secluded area than the 5canonical victims does not correlate with JTR's thrill seeking behaviour.

Nothing about this murder blatantly says to me it was premedatated, it appears to be a situation that happened that night that went wrong. MAYBE it was JTR, though I happen to favour the interesting fact that she was seen with soldiers who "happened" to be lingering around that area when the body was discovered as a more compelling arguement.

You have your own opinion which I admire as too many people conform to anothers ideas. Though I would still argue this murder happened spur of the moment due to something affecting the dynamics of 2 (or more) slightly drunk / merry people going back to an "Unfortunates" room. I can only imagine Martha MAY have done something to trigger a violent streak in the murderer in the time that was allowed between the pub and George Yard.

It is a reasonable statement to suggest that Martha did something to someone - whether JTR, the 2soldiers, her friend Pearly Poll etc - which led to that individual forming a personal vendetta against Martha. The crime scene could have been by chance, and her neighbours probably paid no attention to strange noises going on in the night because if she was an Unfortunate, they would probably prefer to turn a deaf ear, which would eventually become habit.

By you own admission, the attack on Martha Tabram was frenzied, which I completely agree with and perosnally argue there was a personal vendetta towards Martha Tabram that night. If you propose to argue the murderer - I assume you're inclined to believe JTR as Martha Tabram's killer? - evolved in his methods of killing, does this also cover the killers mental state? As there is quite a difference between a frenzied killer in contrast to a cool, calm, collected killer. Martha's killer was emotionally driven in my opinion which led to overkill.

In the 5canonical victims, the incisions were inflicted by a steady hand even under the pressure JTR put himself under. Martha Tabram was, indeed, subject to a frenzied attack. I personally see quite a noticeable difference between the attack inflicted on Martha Tabram (frenzied) to what was delievered to Polly (calmer) and then progressing on to Annie (precise incisions).

The concentration on Martha's throat could explain her saying something offensive to her attacker and the attacker wanting to "erase" it... the deeper wound delivered around the area of the heart means they wanted to make sure she was dead, JTR didn't need to do such a thing. He carried out his procedure the other 38 stab wounds delivered to Martha suggest someone not quite lucid at that moment which led to overkill. JTR was nothing but calm and sophisticated throughout the 5canonical murders. Martha was killed by someone with a personal grudge, the 5canonical victims were murdered because they served a purpose to JTR. The frenzied stabbings were to primarily kill Martha, the ways the 5canonical were murdered in a specific way. the throat was slit to keep them quiet, they were opened so he could get trophies.

Many thanks.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I believe it is more than likely that he had fantasies of his method before ANY killings

Can't believe that crossed my mind. Good thinking. That could also explain how quickly his technique became so polished (especially from Polly to Annie).

[Ben]

Also to say that killers progress with each kill is not true, there is a time period for further adaptions, but the killers ' fantasies ' remain the same throughout his kills, it doesn't change.

No, that's completely wrong, I'm afraid.

Serial killers have proved perfectly capable of incorporating new fantasies as they progress. If he was fantasizing about mutilating his victims' faces, why didn't he attack the faces of Nichols and Chapman? Answer: because he had not yet inculcated that particular fantasy.

However with Nicholls, the blade was weilded in an ' upperhand ' stroke which shows a different useage & a different killer,

Where's the evidence to support this?

By "upperhand", do you mean that the killer was delivering under-arm cuts?

It doesn't take a Genius to know that if you ' stab & puncture ' it won't provide a way for you to obtain an organ that you need to fulfill the ' fantasy ' as you put it Jane

And yet the killer not only "stabbed and punctured" the corpse of Polly Nichols, he singularly failed to take away an organ.

Some modern serial killers have changed thier MO and attempted to disgusie thier tracks with adaptions to confuse ' forensics

But plenty more "change their MO" because they're bored of their previous one, and want to incorporate new elements (and perhaps reject some old ones). It needn't have anything to do with "forensics" at all.

Why was Tabram's skirts turned upwards? Well, in a struggle ?

I'm not sure how her skirts could have "turned upwards" purely on account of a struggle.