overkill

[Shelley]

Hi Shelley

I think I understand the arguments for and against Tabram being included with the other accepted Ripper victims, and yes, clearly there are distinctions to be made. I think personally that Tabram was probably a Ripper victim, because I see similarities and believe that a serial killer progresses with each kill - in fact, I don't see how anything else is really possible, since each kill presumably fulfills his/her fantasy, and once fulfilled, it must itself progress in order to remain meaningful in that its fulfillment endows the killer with power. If that makes sense. I wonder if in the transition from Tabram to Nicholls, JTR found that a live victim wasn't to his liking, and thus tried killing more quickly. Maybe a struggling, dying woman bleeding all over him wasn't in the fantasy.

Jane x

Jane, i do think it boils down to some people would like to believe that Tabram was a ripper victim, for one reason or another, but i for one do not see that Tabram has anything solid to be put into that canocial list of a JTR victim, the fact remains that Tabram was stabbed numerous times and ferocicously with it, which indicates a ' frenzied ' and ' emotion ' based rageful attack. We all know that Tabram was attacked with a blade and it would seem 2 blades, where as Nicholls was attacked with 1 blade. Tabram was punctured and it appears that blade strokes went in at an ' overhand ' method of weilding the blade, which would & could explain why a ' cut ' to Tabram's private part was an accident. However with Nicholls, the blade was weilded in an ' upperhand ' stroke which shows a different useage & a different killer, on top of the facts that Tabram was still alive whilst being attacked to that of Nicholls who was dead when she was ' ripped open '. It doesn't take a Genius to know that if you ' stab & puncture ' it won't provide a way for you to obtain an organ that you need to fulfill the ' fantasy ' as you put it Jane. Also to say that killers progress with each kill is not true, there is a time period for further adaptions, but the killers ' fantasies ' remain the same throughout his kills, it doesn't change. Also if a killer is comfortable with his MO and has success in it, he keeps that for a while too.

[Jane Welland]

Hi Shelley

I think I understand the arguments for and against Tabram being included with the other accepted Ripper victims, and yes, clearly there are distinctions to be made. I think personally that Tabram was probably a Ripper victim, because I see similarities and believe that a serial killer progresses with each kill - in fact, I don't see how anything else is really possible, since each kill presumably fulfills his/her fantasy, and once fulfilled, it must itself progress in order to remain meaningful in that its fulfillment endows the killer with power. If that makes sense. I wonder if in the transition from Tabram to Nicholls, JTR found that a live victim wasn't to his liking, and thus tried killing more quickly. Maybe a struggling, dying woman bleeding all over him wasn't in the fantasy.

Jane x

[Ben]

Hi Lozle,

The Tabram murder might well have been frenzied, but there was nothing inherently disorganized about it. The location was arguably more secluded than those of the "canonical" murders, and the killer's apparent ability to dispatch the victim without creating any noise hardly points towards a "disorganized" approach. Nor would I describe the later murders as "surgically skillful". Whilst Phillips may have claimed to have detected evidence of surgical skill, the preponderance of medical evidence did not indicate a professionally-trained assailant.

There's no compelling evidence that the killer deliberately targetted specific organs either.

I don't think the killer was ever interested in maintaining a strict rigidity of technique in order to impress the public. On the contrary, there are several examples of serial killers who deliberately altered their methods (and even weapons) through fear of being tracked down. Peter Sutcliffe even made alterations because he was frustrated at being continually labelled "the ripper"!. I'm personally unenthusiastic about the idea that the killer, in this case, was primarily concerned with performing to a crowd or delivering a message to society. Most serial killers are chiefly interested in their own strictly personal gratification. Andrei Chikatilo removed organs and even gnawed on a uterus, but out of apparent biological curiosity, and not to make a public impact.

Best regards,
Ben

[Shelley]

Originally by Sam Flynn: ' Let's face it - a single cut three inches in length doesn't begin tocompare with what Jackdid to Nicholls a few weeks later.

But it does, Sam. Both Tabram and Nichols received one, possibly two cuts or stabs to the privates.

Jon, i think what Sam is trying to say, is that it has been mentioned before several times, that this cut to Tabram's ' parivate parts ' could well have been an accident from the fercocious attack of numerous stabbings, where the blade slipped, i think Sam ( and he'll correct me if i'm wrong perhaps), is saying, that in the case of Nicholls she was subdued and her throat cut, Nicholls was dead already before any cuts to her private part and abdomen had been administered to her corpse and no where near the fercocity of an attack and struggle from one victim to the other victim. Tabram on the other hand was alive whilst wounds and a cut was delivered upon her. With Emma Smith she also had a cut to her private part whilst she was alive, as she didn't die until around two days later after her injuries. So far I don't see anyone arguing that Smith was a JTR victim.

[Lozle]

Hi again,

Well, I can fully accept that, as for a while, I myself have been a bit conflicted as to whether the murderer of Martha Tabram and the apparent interrelated 5canonical victims were one and the same. I agree that in fact Tabram's murder could have been an "accidental" start / a sudden outburst and he / she proceeded to kill and "tweak" their methods.

But what you are suggesting implies he went from an disorganised murderer to an organised murderer (in the case from Martha to Polly) which is entirely logical and acceptable... however there is a rather big jump from organised murderer to an almost surgically skillful murderer in locating and taking the organs (Martha to Polly to Annie)...

And IF we are positive that ALL 5canonical victims and Martha Tabram were all killed by one and the same, the methodology, in fact, does seem to evolve.

However, JTR became a nationwide murdering prodigy, I doubt with nationwide fame and with the actual murders indicating that he was "working" that he would risk changing his methodology too much so it was possible for the murderer to take credit for another killing. I imagine JTR would be more concerned with maintaining his signature and for it to be published nationwide as it is blatantly obvious that these killings were not private. It is my belief the media fed, promoted and gave the opportunity for such crimes to occur.

- I say "working" and not doing it purely for pleasure because it appears he was concerned with delivering a message of some kind. The killer would not think to surgically remove organs because he would enjoy it and because he had bags of time behind him. He was risking his life and "hobby" carrying out the 1888 murders. If it were for pleasure, I would have thought someone would just kill their chosen victim... and maybe go as far as mutilating the victim... not remove organs and disfigure them as women in some way...

Unless it were different people committing the crimes from Martha Tabram and the 5canonical victims. One person killing, someone else killing whilst surgically removing organs and mutilating their victims, and one other person killing and surgically removing femanine organs with no mutilations.

If this were one and the same person, for the cases from Martha, Polly, Annie, Liz, Kate and Mary Kelly then they demonstrate unstable methods spiraling from one extreme to the other from the first murder to the last AND inbetween.

Many thanks.

[Ben]

Hi Lozle,

There is often a temptation to overstate the "meticulous" nature of JTR's crimes. He certainly became more so as he progressed, but that's not to say he started out as a ready-made product. More likely, he alighted on abdominal mutilations and trophy-taking as a result of exploration. There's no evidence of any designs on Mary Nichols' organs either. He apparently decided upon eviscerations next time around, and liked it enough to stick with, just as he did with the facial mutilations, and the same could well have been true of the stabbing-to-slashing transition, or the focus on the abdominal region.

They could all have been the result of discovery, rather than a meticulously prepared fantasy.

As for the apparent contrast in the level of control between the Tabram attack and later murders, I fully agree, but that is to be expected when comparing the early and later crimes of a single offender. David Canter refers to two examples:

"Duffy's career in crime is a graphic example of a man whose initial actions are casual and unsophisticated, but who is later able to take an overview of what he was doing and plan his crimes in some detail...

(Jeffrey Dahmer's) first murder was a sudden unplanned outburst, but he eventually developed a procedure for finding and drugging his victims."

The above from Criminal Shadows.

All the best,
Ben

[Lozle]

Hi again,

Hello Ben,

I must have been mistakenly led to believe that most serial killers are more often than not, meticulous in their choice of methods and killings.

My primary observation in this is that THIS murder on Martha Tabram does not correlate with the apparent interrelated 5canonical victims that occured later. For example, in the murder of Martha Tabram, the concern seemed on killing, not taking anything as a trophy. Victims such as Annie Chapman for one example, had an organ taken. The Ripper victims were dispatched in a dettached manner, set out with a plan of what to do and what to take. JTR seems a "conscientious student". Every step planned. Martha Tabram's murder does not indicate such control and organisation.

Admittedly there is no evidence of a personal vendetta, but it certain appears that way. Stabbing includes being close to the individual, having the rage behind yourself to inflict such wounds, whether deep or not. someone clear minded would have a bit of a difficult time stabbing someone 39 times. there is nothing lucid, objective, dettached or controlled about stabbing someone again and again 39times. JTR's slashing of the throat and meticulously opening the victims and actively taking an organ suggests a certain lucid and controlled trait.

Many thanks.

[Ben]

Hi Lozle,

The killer wouldn't have needed anything like a "matter of weeks" to come up with the idea of changing from stabbing* to slash/stabbing. He wouldn't have required five minutes, even. The Zodiac killer, who had exhibited an otherwise remarkably consistent method of dispatching his victims, proved perfectly capable of "changing" to a far more significant extent, and over a very similar time frame to Tabram-Nichols. I don't believe any evidence suggests the Tabram murder was any more "personal" than her successors, nor would I characterize the attack as especially "clumsy".

All the best,
Ben

*Albeit stabs that also included a "cut", as others have pointed out.

[Lozle]

Hey,

If it was JTR, he perfected his method rather quickly It was a matter of weeks between Martha and Polly, a suspected Ripper victim. In those weeks - with no apparent "practise" on any other human being - went from personal and clumsy to controlled and skillful... Unless it was 2seperate people in 2seperate context of killing OR 2people... yes that old faithful theory.

Many thanks.

[Ben]

Hi Lozle,

though I believe that if JTR can commit numerous murders in the same manner, referring to the cutting open and taking of trophy's, I believe it is more than likely that he had fantasies of his method before ANY killings, therefore I would be inclined to think - even if unprepared - he would not stab, but would - at the very least - slash...

As ever, our views ought really to be dictated more than anything else by a knowledge of other serial cases, and the notion of a serial killer having very specific fantasies about how he intends to dispatch a victim before carrying out those fantasies precisely to the letter first time around doesn't have much historical precedent. Far more often, serial killers will have a more generalized idea of their method before converting those plans into a seemingly amateurish first assault, which he then improves upon as he gains experience. Tabram would fit rather nicely into the latter category.

All the best,
Ben

[Lozle]

Hi again,

Back tracking a bit, I think that IF this was in fact JTR, I believe that it is a plausible arguement that Tabram may - as Frank mentioned earlier - have triggered his rampage, been an "accidental" start. Theory and common sense tells us that this act was acted out, motivated and driven by emotion... perhaps JTR did in fact jump in unprepared... though I believe that if JTR can commit numerous murders in the same manner, referring to the cutting open and taking of trophy's, I believe it is more than likely that he had fantasies of his method before ANY killings, therefore I would be inclined to think - even if unprepared - he would not stab, but would - at the very least - slash...

In relation to the skirt being lifted, maybe this was an amateur, in a bit of an emotional state, coming out of the "red mist", and seizing the opportunity to seek some gratification by endulging in a glance... PERHAPS... BIG IF HERE... perhaps the position of the body suggesting a sexual act occurred after death. Killed and then sexual gratification as the legs apart suggest a certain intimate act.

Personally, I'm still strongly set on the possibility the murder was commited by a soldier - who was sited in her company and in the area at the time the body was discovered - who, for some reason "lost it" due to something that happened... perhaps Martha Tabram ridiculed him... That too is common sense that men dont particularly agree or take it too well when a woman belittle's a man... especially if they believe she is an Unfortunate and has no right to say anything of the sort. If she said something in a drunken state to offend him, this could explain the fixation of numerous stabs to the neck / throat. And the heart to make sure she can never do it again by making sure she's dead.

Martha Tabram's murder was motivated by personal factors, JTR was not concerned with personal influences. Tabram's murder was uncontrolled and frenzied, JTR is imfamous for his controlled and shocking killings. JTR shocked the entire nation by butchering, sergically removing organs from Unfortunates. If this murder was performed by one and the same JTR, then I believe there would be some indication between killings in the methods JTR favored. JTR is renowned for slitting, slashing and cutting open, this murder is focused on stabbing, which is a much more personal way to kill someone.

As for what the media included and / or excluded or what officials held back, I find it quite difficult to grasp that the media would down play such an angry murder. I would imagine they would to try bleed it for all the story was worth. Their primary concern was sales. But thats my opinion.

Many thanks.

[Jon Guy]

let's face it - a single cut three inches in length doesn't begin to compare with what Jack did to Nichols a few weeks later.

But it does, Sam. Both Tabram and Nichols received one, possibly two cuts or stabs to the privates.

[robhouse]

Thanks for the post robhouse, and I see a bit better Frank why you are suggesting this "cut", based on robhouses idea of discretionary information. Citing that it is not mentioned universally was when I dropped any guard I may have had, because when making any point, the tendency can be to innocently... or not, leave out information like that comment,... but robhouse included the statement knowing it challenged his position. I like that kind of start. No offense intended towards your arguments at all Frank, I did misread you slightly before, but all valid arguments and well put.

Im just mentioning this about robhouses post because I think its a great example of how to win friends and influence people with a statement.

I'm not quite sure what this means... I was just pointing out that the version of Killeen's testimony you quoted left out some stuff. And because in my opinion, this particular wound is relevant. Not sure what you mean about winning friends and influencing people... are you talking about me?

Sam, I realize of course that this wound does not compare with the later wounds. But I do think it is significant if indeed it was a cut to the genitals.

RH

[Shelley]

Nonsense.

"The connection with JTR and Tabram as a victim" is perfectly plausible even in isolation from any theory involding two men being present.



That's only if you exclude Kelly as one of the "JTR killings", which was certainly no less frenzied than Tabram's murder.

Ben, On Line 1 you haven't used any base for argumentation for your points on Tabram being a Jack the Ripper Victim, even though you are aware that my points based on evidences differ from yours.

Line 2: I personally don't see Mary Kelly as a Jack the Ripper Victim either.

So what's your point Ben?

[Shelley]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for that info......I did pull out a book & go through it that Dr Bond did say Kelly's heart was ' absent ' as he put it. Perhaps i fused the hoax Maybrick diary & assumed that ' heart taken ' was part of the hoax. Oh, well good old Dr Bond then, he meant ' absent ' as in missing from the crime scene.

With Tabram i don't think anything can be read into the injury of her head, as i stated in an earlier post on this thread, that the injury could have occurred with her head banged against the wall in the attack, and yes there was a struggle it seems in Tabram's case which is different from any of the canocials, including Mary Kelly as she did appear to have defence wounds on her thumb & hand, injuries on this hand that had not been aquired prior to her death.

Regards
Shelley