How likely is she to have been a Ripper victim?

[Hellrider]

found it kinda strange that nobody opened this thread yet, for it's mandatory in my eyes..

I tend to dismiss her from the list because the hiatus, the leap of time is just too big..more than 2 years..

of course, the circumstances resemble the Ripper murders.

The problem is that Whitechapel was a district of extreme violence, so if there is a possibility to have two murderers operating at the same time in the same neighborhood, then in Whitechapel! In other districts, it would be easier to name the Ripper as a suspect becuase normally chances of two murder cases/series in so close proximity are very slim..however, not here

[Dan Norder]

Two years is by no means a large leap of time as far as serial killers go... and it's only a gap of two years if there were no killings in between, which we certainly don't know is the case. There was more than one dead woman found in London between Kelly and Coles that have been offered as potentially being the Ripper's work, and if he'd traveled during that time he might have had one or more elsewhere.

[Bulldog]

found it kinda strange that nobody opened this thread yet, for it's mandatory in my eyes..

This topic has been the subject of several threads in the past. Perhaps you aren't aware that Casebook's server crashed a month or so ago, wiping out all of the message board contents.

I think that it would be safe to say that while some people are convinced that she was a Ripper victim, most Ripperologists dismiss the idea.

Bulldog

[sdreid]

I'd say about 2%. The time gap is too long especially for this killer plus we have a guy who very well may have done it and who was probably not the Ripper. That doesn't mean that it's not an interesting case in its own right though.

[The Grave Maurice]

I think that it would be safe to say that while some people are convinced that she was a Ripper victim, most Ripperologists dismiss the idea.

I agree with that. In my opinion, James Thomas Sadler dunnit, and he wasn't the Ripper. End of story. But, as in just about everything related to JtR, it's open to debate.

[Monty]

Guys,

I think that it would be safe to say that while some people are convinced that she was a Ripper victim, most Ripperologists dismiss the idea

I think these Ripperologists do so out of hand, without looking at the evidence as a whole.

Ive always found it odd those who accept Stride easily dismiss Coles simply because she doesnt fit with the timeline.

Look at the Stride murder and you are almost looking at Coles. A throat cut, possibility of the discoverer stumbling on the attacker, life only just escaping from the poor victim, the location, etc.

Marked similarities that would seem conicendental however I feel to look at one you must look at the other.

Monty

[Trevor Marriott]

Those who dismiss Coles and Mackenzie as being Ripper victims are very naieve.

To say Coles was not just beacuse of the time gap again is foolish. Many serial killler have abstained from killing for considerable lenghts of time for varying reasons. To quote an example Peter Sutcliffe went 11 months without killing.

removal of the rose tinted spectacles might help to alleviate naievety

[kensei]

From an American perspective, the BTK killer Dennis Rader- who is known to have had extremely powerful fantasies driving him- was able to contain his urges enough to put years between some of his killings.

[Carrotty Nell]

One thing that has always intrigued me about this particular case. The spot where Frances died is very close to Cable Street the likeliest (though unproven) address of George Chapman at this date. She died in the same month in which Chapman suffered the devastating tragedy of the death of his son, and I personally believe it was this tragedy which first unbalanced his mind and was the catalyst for his long decent into evil. And it was not long after this time that Chapman so precipitately took ship for America.

I've never regarded Chapman as a serious candidate for the Ripper crimes of 88 for several reasons... but there are a few interesting coincidences above I think.

[Pinkerton]

I think there are two possibilities in the case of Francis Coles--either Sadler killed her or the Ripper got her. In my opinion any other possibility is remote.

I'm torn as to whether Sadler killed Coles or not. On the plus side:

1--Sadler had had a fight with Coles that very day
2--A man identified Sadler as the person who sold him a knife the morning after Coles was murdered. Sadler denied he had a knife.
3--Sadler couldn't account for the time between 2-3am.
4--Sadler was last seen near the Royal Mint by a policeman between 15-30 minutes before Francis Coles body was found. The Royal Mint is very close to Swallow Gardens where Coles body was found.

On the minus side:

1--Many witnesses said Sadler was very drunk around the the time Coles was killed. This might account for him not having the ability to account for every hour of the night before. It was also make it more difficult to murder someone.
2--Sadler returned to the lodging house within 30-45 minutes after Coles was killed. Though he had some blood on him he was known to have been in a fight earlier. He later went to the hospital.
3--The knife that was claimed to have been sold by Sadler was very blunt.
4--As far as we know, Sadler never was ever accused of any other murders after Coles. And I believe he lived another 20 years or so.

I slightly lean towards Sadler being guilty, primarily because of reason #4. That is a HELL OF A COINCIDENCE that both Coles and Sadler started out in White's Row (they left separately at slightly different times), and both ended up way south of there in the same general area around the same time. If Sadler's defense could have come up with a SINGLE witness that saw him between 2 and 2:45 am OUT of this general area after he left the Mint then I would lean towards his innocence. If there was such a witness we don't have their testimony.

I might also add that IF Sadler intended to murder Coles on that day "pretending to be drunk" would have given him the perfect alibi. First he can claim he was too drunk to murder anyone, second he could claim that his memory was foggy because he was so inebriated, and thirdly he could purposefully start a fight with someone (he called a worker a "dock rat") so he could account for any blood on his person. I'm NOT saying he did this BUT this would be a great cover...

[Bulldog]

One thing that has always intrigued me about this particular case. The spot where Frances died is very close to Cable Street the likeliest (though unproven) address of George Chapman at this date. .

Severin Klosowski (later to become George Chapman after his return from America) most likely lived at 2, Tewksbury Buildings at the time of the Frances Coles murder. The national census taken during the first week of April, 1891 showed him living there with his wife, Lucy. The census taker spelled his first name 'Seweryn'. There is no doubt, however, that this was the same individual. Klosowski's wife was named Lucy, and 'Seweryn' is listed on the census sheet as a hair dresser.

Bulldog

[The Grave Maurice]

Those are all very good points, Pinkerton. However, I don't think we can give too much weight to the fact that Sadler was never accused of any further murders. He was a bad-tempered drunk on a two-day bender who seemed to believe that Frances had colluded in his mugging on February 13. Motive enough for her murder and, having had a close call, he might have avoided similar situations in the future.

Then again, as Carrotty Nell and Bulldog point out, there was a known murderer living somewhere in the area, and we have the evidence of Ellen Callagher who stated that Frances went off with a violent man in a cheesecutter hat (whatever that is) shortly before her death. Lots of suspects for this one.

[Pinkerton]

Then again, as Carrotty Nell and Bulldog point out, there was a known murderer living somewhere in the area, and we have the evidence of Ellen Callagher who stated that Frances went off with a violent man in a cheesecutter hat (whatever that is) shortly before her death. Lots of suspects for this one.

I had forgotten about Francis going off with the guy in the cheesecutter hat. That's one more "minus" for Sadler NOT being the man (this man was described as younger than Sadler if memory serves me correctly). However as I said, I believe it was Sadler or the Ripper. In other words, the only thing that would leave me to believe that it might NOT have been the Ripper is that Sadler might have murdered her. You take him out of the equation and I would chalk it up to the Ripper. There aren't too many prostitutes with "cut throats" around this time period (plus or minus 20 years). I'm with Trevor on this one. I believe Ripperologists are too quick to rule out MacKenzie and Coles.

[Bulldog]

Here's the 1891 census entry for Klosowski. Apparently he and his wife shared their rooms with a 17 year old boy from Poland who worked as his assistant. I can't make out the boy's name.

The Tewksbury Buildings were only a few blocks from the corner of Wentworth and Commercial Streets, where Ellen Calana (?) allegedly saw Coles meet her killer - a man she later testified was not Tom Sadler.

Bulldog

[Hellrider]

hey guys,

when I said in the begnning I was surprised this thread didn't exist...of course, I was already a member of the old boards, but I was surprised that after the crash nobody reopened this thread because I think Frances is very tantalizing to look at...

On the other hand, if we look at her age, she is comparable to MJK. Strange thing that, because it seems reasonable that the Ripper normally murdered 40+ age prostitutes if we look at the C5. Kelly's death is sometimes attributed to a personal relation he had to her (lover etc). Then Mackenzie was 40 again and Coles remarkably younger. One might reason that the Ripper simply seized an opportunity when he slayed Frances Coles, but on the other hand, the C5 show clearly that he did not automatically take what fate brought before his blade. Otherwise, I'm sure, he would have had the chance to kill women younger than 40. So the solution would habe to be: Jack the Ripper (if he killed Frances Coles) must have had a relation to her as well, because she is outside of the group of people that is widely considered his prey.