New Solution

[Uncle Jack]

Maybe Horsnell is the identity of the supposed Fairy Fay. Maybe the press were referring to th Horsnell murder and got that mixed with Smith's injuries. Just a thought... lol

[keithsmurray]

Focusing on pre-canonical Whitechapel cases

Largely driven by recent research and publications, and recognizing the greater-covered territory of the canonical victims as perhaps less likely to offer new insights, it does seem that focusing on the earlier cases makes good sense. Obviously numerous people are doing this.

The idea, represented here and in Tom Wescott's book, that the apparent group murdering Emma Smith may have included a later break-away "Jack," and that with Martha Tabram's death a somehow related cover-up prompted Pearly Poll's bizarre exploits in misdirection, offers possibilities. These possibilities include

* a route of progression that connects the earlier and canonical cases (gang participant breaks from group and commits solo murders driven by his own emergent sexual-sadistic motivations

* someone in role of community authority - common-lodging house owners/managers with their own reasons for managing publicity away from themselves - stimulating false testimony

This theorizing does require acceptance of Mrs. Smith's claims of a gang attack. Perhaps her strange actions in avoiding making a report and seeking help in her Bataan-Death-March treks back the to the lodging house and then off to the hospital while bleeding from mortal injuries is explained by fear of the "group" as well as confusion and embarrassment. As the Hayes' report of being smacked on the head that night by toughs does not necessarily relate to Mrs. Smith's attack, and Mrs. Smith may have simply been explaining her plight in a way that wouldn't require her to divulge being attacked in the course of prostitution, and a single attacker was responsible anyway.

Nevertheless, continued attention on these earlier attacks - and any others - do appear to offer a route of explaining events in a fuller context than "lone nut cracks up and heads into the street." I say this even though that is precisely how many of these cases progress. It just seems as if a little more was going on than that, perhaps.

[DRoy]

Keith,

I just thought I'd welcome you to the boards. Really good post by the way.

Nevertheless, continued attention on these earlier attacks - and any others - do appear to offer a route of explaining events in a fuller context than "lone nut cracks up and heads into the street." I say this even though that is precisely how many of these cases progress. It just seems as if a little more was going on than that, perhaps.

Try reading Old Bailey cases as there is a wealth of information in them. You can learn directly from common-lodging house owners/managers, prostitutes, etc. It opens your eyes to what it was like living in the area and the types of things that were happening.

Cheers
DRoy

[keithsmurray]

Thanks and cheers, DRoy.

I appreciate the suggestion - always glad to leave the squalor of today for that of yesterday.

Keith

[gnote]

Largely driven by recent research and publications, and recognizing the greater-covered territory of the canonical victims as perhaps less likely to offer new insights, it does seem that focusing on the earlier cases makes good sense. Obviously numerous people are doing this.

The idea, represented here and in Tom Wescott's book, that the apparent group murdering Emma Smith may have included a later break-away "Jack," and that with Martha Tabram's death a somehow related cover-up prompted Pearly Poll's bizarre exploits in misdirection, offers possibilities. These possibilities include

* a route of progression that connects the earlier and canonical cases (gang participant breaks from group and commits solo murders driven by his own emergent sexual-sadistic motivations

* someone in role of community authority - common-lodging house owners/managers with their own reasons for managing publicity away from themselves - stimulating false testimony

This theorizing does require acceptance of Mrs. Smith's claims of a gang attack. Perhaps her strange actions in avoiding making a report and seeking help in her Bataan-Death-March treks back the to the lodging house and then off to the hospital while bleeding from mortal injuries is explained by fear of the "group" as well as confusion and embarrassment. As the Hayes' report of being smacked on the head that night by toughs does not necessarily relate to Mrs. Smith's attack, and Mrs. Smith may have simply been explaining her plight in a way that wouldn't require her to divulge being attacked in the course of prostitution, and a single attacker was responsible anyway.

Nevertheless, continued attention on these earlier attacks - and any others - do appear to offer a route of explaining events in a fuller context than "lone nut cracks up and heads into the street." I say this even though that is precisely how many of these cases progress. It just seems as if a little more was going on than that, perhaps.

With regards to Smith i don't see why it's necessary for her version of events to have an altered interpretation. If Jack was a "break-away" his participation in her attack could be explained in either scenario.

[Rosella]

What serial killers do we know of who participated in gang activity in their teens, or very early twenties?

Of course serial killers aren't one homogenous lump and I may be very wrong here but, with the exception of Bundy, few serial killers seem to me to have been participators in many group activities of any kind before starting their 'careers'.

The ones I have read about tend to have been, if not social misfits, at least loners. Gang activity involves acting co-operatively, in unison on some occasions, and taking orders on others. Not the sort of thing I could imagine appealing to Jack, but then that's just my interpretation!

[harry]

Was Smith misunderstood.Could it have been a lone attacker who she believed or knew, was involved with a gang.Today we read the description gang related, when only one person may be involved.

[Adam Dalgliesh]

Emma Smith Court Case

Hi

I was looking on the old bailey website and found Emma Smith had taken her husband Samuel Smith to court for assulting her. He stabbed her in the breast and vowed to do her in. Emma also denied she knew a young man who was with the circus, could this be Fingers Freddy as mentioned on casbook/ victims/ Emma Smith. Could Fingers Freddy and gang be the ones who attacked Emma.

At the time of the case Emma was living at 16 Thames Street, Commercial Road

View the case at oldbaileyonline.org
28th June 1880

[ChrisGeorge]

Hi Adam

Thanks for your interesting post about whether the Emma Smith in the 1880 Old Bailey case to which you refer is the same woman in the Whitechapel murders case

There are several reasons to think it might not be the same Emma Smith. The one assaulted in the early morning hours of April 4, 1888, and who subsequently died, appears to have been younger than the woman in the 1880 Old Bailey assault case. The Emma Smith assaulted in Osborne Street is said to have had two children, less offspring than the Emma Smith in the 1880 case. See http://www.casebook.org/victims/emmasmit.html: "Emma claimed to have both a son and a daughter living somewhere in the area of Finsbury Park, and was often heard to say that they should do something to help her situation."

As we can see below, the Emma Smith in the Old Bailey case testified, among other references that she made to her children, that "I have had nine children—the youngest is two years and seven months old—I have two sons in the militia. . . . my eldest son is twenty years of age. . . ."

Best regards

Chris

************************************************

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18800628-name-174&div=t18800628-414#highlight

SAMUEL SMITH, Breaking Peace > wounding, 28th June 1880.

Reference Number: t18800628-414

414. SAMUEL SMITH (44) , Feloniously wounding Emma Smith, with intent to do her grievous bodily harm.

MR. CUNNINGHAM Prosecuted; MR. WAITE Defended.

EMMA SMITH . I am the prisoner's wife—I live at 16, Thames Street, Commercial Road—I have not lived with the prisoner for six months previous to the 11th May—on that evening I was coming out of 16, Thames Street—I saw the prisoner knocking at the door three doors off—he came to me and offered his hand—he said "Do you intend to live with me again?"—I said "No"—he said "I will follow you"—I said "If you follow me, I will give you in charge"—he said "You cannot give me in charge, you have nothing to give me charge for"—I said "I can give you in charge if it is only for threatening my life with a knife"—he said "I did not"—I said "You did"—I went on up the street—he said "I will go wherever you go"—I said "When I get to the top of the street I shall see a policeman and will give you in charge"—he said "I will follow you and I will do for you"—on the previous Sunday he had come to me and asked me for a bonnet and shawl, and I gave them to him—he also asked me for two rings and the earrings I am wearing now—I said I would not give them to him—he went away when I ordered him out of the room—I said "You have got all you want, leave the room"—when we got to the top of Thames Street, at the corner of Commercial Road, he caught hold of the back of my hair—he had taken a knife from his breast pocket—I said "Spare my life, do not do that whatever you do"—he ran the knife into my left breast, saying "Die, you"—I fell with the knife in me—I remember its being taken out—I fell with my face on the ground—I was taken to Dr. Cave's, and from there I was removed to the London Hospital, where I remained till the 27th of May.

Cross-examined. I was married to the prisoner fifteen years ago—I have lived with him twenty-one years—I lived with him before I was married—I have had nine children—the youngest is two years and seven months old—I have two sons in the militia—I do not know the young man that travels with a circus that I am accused of going with—my son did not find me in bed with him, nor with any young man—when I left the prisoner I left a child two and a half years old, and another nine years old—I quarreled with him—he had been drinking all the week—I went away with the man I am living with—he was a lodger—I went to fetch the child away a fortnight after, and was told it was in the country—the children have been in the workhouse three times—I have not been in prison—I have been in prison for twenty-one days—I was ashamed to own it—I have never left the prisoner before except to run into a neighbour's house from fear—I was there three days—I was not with another man—I did not sleep with a man—I sat in a chair all the while, and came backwards and forwards to see my children—I dare not stop with him—my eldest son is twenty years of age—the prisoner's brother visited me in the hospital—I did not confess to him nor to anybody that I had the disease—his brother told me he had it—I had it; the prisoner gave it to me; he brought it from London—I have known the man I am living with about fourteen weeks—I have not said I meant to get my husband penal servitude so that he could not interfere between me and the man—I did not scuffle with the prisoner till he attacked me—I was so stupefied I did not know what he did—it was my marriage ring he tried to take.

Re-examined. He said he would do for me before I left him—he said he said he had got another woman to do for him and his children—the wound could not have been accidental—he was quite sober—I was sober—I had just come from work—this is the knife he brought in his pocket the night he did the deed.

(A shoemaker's knife).

JAMES SEVIER . I am a labourer of 9, Thames Street, Commercial Road—on the 11th of May, about 6.30, I saw the prosecutrix and the prisoner quarrelling—the prosecutrix said "I gave you on Sunday all you wanted, and cannot give you any more"—the prisoner said "Well, I'll follow you about till I do for you"—when they got to the arch in Thames Street the prisoner caught hold of the prosecutrix by the back of her nock and stabbed her in the breast with a knife—I was behind—I saw the knife flash in the air as it was held up in his right hand—I rushed to the woman—I saw the prisoner lying on his wife's chest on the ground—she got up and ran into a butcher's shop—I assisted in taking the woman to a doctor.

Cross-examined. It was daylight.

Re-examined. It looked to me as if it was done for the purpose.

JOHN MARSHALL (Policeman H 140). On 11th May, between 6 and 7 p.m. I saw a crowd in the Commercial Road—I took the prisoner into custody for stabbing the prosecutrix with a knife—this was the knife which was handed to me by one of the mob, who said in the prisoner's hearing "He has stabbed his wife with a knife"—when I told the prisoner the charge he said "I hope it will finish her, she will be done for then"—he was sober.

ALBERT EDWARD JONES . I am house surgeon in the London-Hospital—the prosecutrix was admitted on the 11th, between 6 and 7 p.m—I found a punctured wound in the left chest between the second and third rib, implicating the lung—she was suffering from the shock, and from loss of blood—she had also a small wound on the third finger of the left hand, the ring finger—she was under my treatment from the 11th to the 27th, when she was discharged—it was a dangerous wound—the prosecutrix's life was in danger for some days—it has now perfectly healed.

Cross-examined. It is difficult to say what force was used; it might have gone in with slight force; the danger arose from happening to hit a dangerous part rather than from the force used.

The Prisoner stated before the Magistrate that the prosecutrix went away and lived with another man.

GUILTY of unlawfully wounding.— Eighteen Months' Imprisonment.

[Emphasis added. CG]

[Adam Dalgliesh]

Thanks Chris

[Pcdunn]

Attacks were attempted abortions?

It's certainly another one to add to the 18/19 George Street 'concidence' anyway Stan!

I haven't been able to find anymore on the case, like where exactly Emily had been that night, but it seems to add weight to the gang theory. Three women from one street in the space 6 months attacked by a gang?

Hello all,

I've just begun reading this thread, and can't help wondering if the stories behind the attacks on Emma Smith and Emily Horsnail (or Horsnell) sound implausible because they were fabricated to cover up attempted abortions? Either self-inflicted, or with help, the woman involved would certainly not want to confess that she had tried a criminal act, which abortion was then.
Just a thought.

[GUT]

Could the JAMES SEVIER, mentioned in Smith's case be Sivvy, Annie Chapman's fellow, I know Annie's was named by some as John [but no one actually seems sure what his name was], but gee it's close.

Probably nothing but a coincidence, but not exactly a common type name.

[Rosella]

Wasn't 'sivvy' just a nickname though, because he made wire sieves for a living?

[GUT]

Wasn't 'sivvy' just a nickname though, because he made wire sieves for a living?

That is likely, but far from certain, I know that some accounts have him as John with various spellings of Seivey, Siffey, Sievey or Sivvey. From memory this was while they were living in Dorset Street (32??)