New Solution

[sdreid]

How long does it take to say, "I hid for an hour"? I timed it - 2 seconds.

[Celesta]

How long does it take to say, "I hid for an hour"? I timed it - 2 seconds.

Point well taken, Stan!

[Roy Corduroy]

Please accept my apologies. I was trying to clarify the locations involved but I may have confused things instead. Thank you Sam and Phillip for bailing me out. When I get it right I’ll come to London and take the cabbie exam and take the tour.

1. A little after midnight Emma Smith was seen out in Limehouse talking to a man. At the intersection of Farrance St. and Burdett Road.

2. From there, Commercial Road leads back to Whitechapel.

3. Quoting the police report “The offence had been commited on the pathway opposite No. 10 Brick Lane, about 300 yards from 18 George Street (her home) and half a mile from the London Hospital to which deceased walked.”

She was in shock and the part about 1:30 doesn't fit, but it doesn't negate her story.

I used one of Captain Cook’s old charts to locate George Street, Spitalfields.

Roy

[Celesta]

Hey Roy, et al,

Here's the link to the Victorian London dictionary site, which I'll post for everyone's convenience. There are several maps. One of them, The 1899 Pocket Guide to London, is useful. You have to pan way over to the east above the three rectangular West Docks. I saw Farrance but didn't spot Burdett. It's a long walk, looks like.

Hey Philip, How long do you estimate the walk, under normal conditions? Normal for 1888, of corpse!

http://www.victorianlondon.org/frame-maps.htm

[RJM]

The lone punter theory

I'm dubious of Emma Smith's version of events on the night she was attacked. There are too many questions that don't add up. Perhaps she was attacked in a different matter. I'd like to look at the incident where Emma Smith's injuries were the result of a lone punter She's hurting and now has several decisions to make. Does she go home? Does she go to the hospital? Does she tell a policeman? Does she try to find a friend to help her?

If Emma looks for a policeman, he will ask questions about who attacked her, where, and how? The London Hospital was just slightly farther away from her digs if she was attacked where she claimed. If she went there, Emma would be asked exactly the same questions as the police, and they would call for the authorities regardless. She may have tried to find a friend, but eventually makes the decision to walk home to George Street, avoiding the police, and the inevitable questions, along the way.

Why did she do this? Emma needed time to come up with a story. If she admitted that it was a sexual transaction gone bad, then she must also admit to being a prostitute. Not an easy thing to do in Victorian London to have that kind of stigma placed on you. It's very easy to conceive of a scenario where she wanted to protect her pride and possibly her family from the truth. She may have even wanted to protect her attacker if he was a boyfriend or someone similarly close.

Her sketchy story is that a gang of three youths attacked her. It turns her into a sympathetic victim, where her occupation is not a question. If it's untrue it starts to make more sense though. Why would a trio of young men attack her? Robbery certainly isn't a motive as Emma had no money. Rape is a possibility but doesn't fit the spot where it happened nor the circumstances she described. Plus, she could still go to the hospital and hide the fact she was prostitute to get her injuries treated if it happened in the matter she said it did.

I think Emma Smith lied about the circumstances of the attack on her. I believe her injuries were the result of a trick gone bad. If this is the case, then closer attention should be paid to Emma Smith as a possible victim of the Whitechapel murderer.

Cheers,

Robert

p.s. I believe Ada Wilson's story is not unlike Emma Smith's; that she also lied about exactly what happened. Ada's injuries and version of events don't make sense the way she told it but do if you look at her as a prostitute - not a seamstress, and her attacker was a client, and not a robber. But that's one for a different thread.

[Roy Corduroy]

Margaret Hames

A belated thank you Robert for that post, and indeed, thanks everyone for your input.

Margaret Hames as Victim

Back to Chapter 1 of Ultimate JtR Companion - Evans & Skinner, page 3 "However, a fellow lodger of Smith's (at 18 George St, Spitalfields) Margaret Hames, was similarly attacked in the same area on 8 December 1887 (Friday), and was admitted to the Whitechapel infirmary with chest and face injuries. Records held at the London Metropolitan Archives, reveal that she was not released until two day after Boxing Day 1887. (Dec 28)

By the same area I take to mean the general location of where Emma Smith said she was attacked - Whitechapel.

So is there any further information known about Margaret Hames such as age, ancestors, etc? And any other info at all about the attack of that date? Time? Type of weapon if any? Domestic quarrel or a stranger involved?

Margaret Hames as Witness

-to the events of April 3/4 1888. Her inquest testimony as reported by the Times which had her name incorrectly as Hayes:

Another woman [Hayes] gave evidence that she had last seen Emma Smith between 12 and one on Tuesday morning [3 Apr], talking to a man in a black dress, wearing a white neckerchief. It was near Farrant-street, Burdett-road. She was hurrying away from the neighbourhood, as she had herself been struck in the mouth a few minutes before by some young men.She did not believe that the man talking to Smith was one of them. The quarter was a fearfully rough one. Just before Christmas last she had been injured by men under circumstances of a similar nature, and was a fortnight in the infirmary.

That intersection is over in Limehouse, straight out Commercial Rd from Whitechapel.

Two observations: First, one would think they went to Limehouse together. Don't know. Second, the part about the fearful quarter can be taken two ways. Either by the quarter greater East London is meant generically, or else it's a tad off, because in fact, the Christmas last attack on Margaret Hames was in Whitechapel.

Roy

[Debra A]

I recently came across an inquest report on an Emily Horsnail from 22 Nov 1887 that I personally haven't seen before.
Emily resided at 19 George Street, Spitalfields and was found dead in this lodging house one morning in November 87, the result of injuries from kicks to the stomach by 'some men she did not know' a few nights previously. Emily died as the result of peritonitis cause by severe injuries to her right side. No post mortem examination was made however.

Emily was 24 and estranged from her husband, and had been living at the George Street lodging house for 3 or 4 years since her separation. The deceased was said to have acted as charwoman 'or anything' for a living.
She had been out drinking on the night of her attack.

Does anyone know anything further about this one?

[sdreid]

Looks like you've found another non-canonical there Deb.

Maybe Fay was a confusion of her and Hames.

[Debra A]

It's certainly another one to add to the 18/19 George Street 'concidence' anyway Stan!

I haven't been able to find anymore on the case, like where exactly Emily had been that night, but it seems to add weight to the gang theory. Three women from one street in the space 6 months attacked by a gang?

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Debs,

I've tried tracking down Emily Horsnail in the census, but with little definite success. There was one Emily Horsnell (nee Atkins), married (with a young daughter) to a cabinet maker named Alfred in Bethnal Green in 1881. This Emily would have been 26 or 27 in 1887 but, given the usual vagueness over ages, it might have been her. Her husband appears to have moved house and was married to different woman in 1891.

Can you remember where you found the inquest report, in case there were any additional details?

[Debra A]

Hi Sam,
Here's the report from Lloyd's weekly Nov 13 1887.

The name of her sister is given, maybe you will be able to trace her through that. I've had a brief half hearted look but not come up with much as yet.

[Sam Flynn]

..."the wife of a cabinet maker", eh? How lucky was that? Sounds good to me

Thanks, Debs.

[Debra A]

Sorry Sam, I am half arsing it on here at the moment, I missed that in your first post. Sounds good to me too.

[DVV]

Congratulations Debra and Sam,
and thanks for sharing.
What about the chronology of events?
The inquest took place on Saturday 12 November (am I right?)
When was she assaulted? The previous Saturday?

Looks definitely like Emma's case...and Baxter remains true to the form!

Amitiés,
David

[Debra A]

Hi David
Saturday November 5th for the attack? Thursday November 10 th for the death...maybe?