New Solution

[Celesta]

Why did it take Emma until 4 or 5 a.m. to return to #18 George Street, when she claimed she was attacked at about 1:30 a.m.? Was she so unable to walk that it took her that long to make it back to the lodging house? I can easily see that. And if so, why did not a single cop see this woman, who would have been in obvious distress and barely able to walk, struggling up the street?

I've wondered about this 19 year old for awhile. We tend to think that a serial killer gets started later in his 20's, at least some of us do. So has the 19 year old twerp been discarded as a possible JtR? He stood out in Emma's mind. Was it his age that made him stand out, or was he the one who caused the wound that killed her?

As for the book, I read a short review that claimed that the author was reluctant to advance him as a suspect, which was why the part about JtR was stuck in later. How true that is, I don't know. No matter what though, Silver was a nasty piece of work apparently.

Emma Smith, rest in peace.

[Roy Corduroy]

Thanks, Maurice. You are right, the book has a theory, not a solution. I just like that word solution. It sounds like Sherlock Holmes.

You have a good point, Celesta, about serial killers starting at a later age. But wasn't Severin Klosowski, one of the favored suspects, only 23 years old?

[Roy Corduroy]

Again, thank you everyone. I am new here and appreciate you including me in your discussion group.

Putting aside the van Onselen book and focusing on the murder of Emma Smith, I can locate Farrance St in Limehouse where the witness saw her and see that Commercial Road connects from there back to Whitechapel. Where the white church stood is now Altab Ali Park. The scene of the attack as she described it is where Osborne, Brick Lane, Wentworth and Montague all come together. But does George St. no longer exist? And is George Yard there or someplace different? Because I am trying to get an idea of how far it was from the attack to her home, and also because a murder took place in the "yard."

I am using the Tower Hamlets interactive map.

Roy

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I have always been of the opinion that Emma Smith either protected someone or - more likely - was afraid of retaliation from the offender(s) and therefore invented at least parts of her story.
It should be noted, however, that in spite of her injuries Smith DID manage to drag herself to the lodging house without being spotted by anyone or any PC - wherever it happened or regardless if her story about the youth gang was true or not. So that in itself can't be used as an argument for her story being untrue.

As for the Ripper connection, I fail to see how it could be linked to the Ripper in any way. Again, these women led a dangerous life and the area was at the time probably littered with people who were capable of this and that. The thrusting of an object into her vagina suggests a person with some kind of sexual sadist personality but of course that doesn't mean we automatically should attribute it to the Ripper. The majority of the police most certainly treated it as an isolated incident - it was the press who regarded it as the 'first of the Whitechapel killings'.

All the best

[Roy Corduroy]

Thank you Glenn,

In the meantime I have figured out that George YARD is Gunthorpe today. Duh. But the 1894 Ordinance map on this website does not have a George STREET. By then it was renamed Lolesworth or Thrawl. Anyway, the distance home from where Emma Smith said she was attacked was very short.

Roy

[Natalie Severn]

[QUOTE=Glenn Lauritz Andersson;14922]I have always been of the opinion that Emma Smith either protected someone or - more likely - was afraid of retaliation from the offender(s) and therefore invented at least parts of her story.
It should be noted, however, that in spite of her injuries Smith DID manage to drag herself to the lodging house without being spotted by anyone or any PC - wherever it happened or regardless if her story about the youth gang was true or not. So that in itself can't be used as an argument for her story being untrue.

Glenn,
to quote Stewart Evans, the murder of Emma Smith is recognised as the first of the Whitechapel Murders.It was the first file in the police Whitechapel Murder Files and is now missing-see The Ultimate JtR Source Book page 3.
Best
Natalie

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Glenn,
to quote Stewart Evans, the murder of Emma Smith is recognised as the first of the Whitechapel Murders. It was the first file in the police Whitechapel Murder Files and is now missing-see The Ultimate JtR Source Book page 3.
Best
Natalie

I am very well aware of that, Natalie.
But that only means that they placed it in this file, not that they necessarily believed it to be the work of Jack the Ripper.
The file 'Whitechapel Murders' include all murders from Emma Smith up to Frances Coles and the police unanimously hardly regarded all those murders to be the work of the Ripper. It was merely a way to file the unsolved murders in 1888.

The press, on the other hand, established - or rather 'created' a link between the murders before the police did, and regarded the Emma Smith murder to be the first in the series (meaning they regarded Nichols to be the third victim, which the majority of the police most certainly didn't).

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Hi Roy,

Considering the state Emma Smith was in it is of course possible that she got confused and got the time and maybe even the distance or location messed up.
However, I find it more likely that she fabricated some bits and pieces for various reasons (but possibly to throw the doctors and police off their track), but we will never know and can only speculate why (if she did).

All the best

[Celesta]

Hi Roy,

I'm not trying to be glib or sarcastic here. I'm just wondering why she would protect someone who had just done this horrible thing to her. Maybe it's not registering with me as to who she would be protecting. As for the gang, who's to witness against her on this? She seemed pretty certain about the spot where the attack occurred. As for the time, she may have gotten confused, due to drink and also to pain. I can vouch for the fact that when you are in bad pain, the time seems to drag, or at least seems to behave differently.

[sdreid]

There were others in the area, including police, who didn't report seeing any roving gangs so that has to at least create some question even though it doesn't prove that there weren't any.

Regarding why she would protect someone, it may have been a person she had some affection for like a lover, a relative or a relative of a friend. I always wondered if the killer Margery Wren protected up until she died from his attack wasn't an illegitimate son. If it was, she had two possible reasons to protect him, one, because he was her son who she didn't want to hang and, two, because, being an elderly spinster, she wanted the life long scandal to remain a secret.

Maybe knowing that he'd caused his mother's death sent Jack fully over the brink.

[Celesta]

I suppose that's possible, Stan.

Yet Margaret Hames, Emma's lodge mate, was also attacked in Dec. 1887, by a gang in the same area. Plus she stated that that night, she had been harassed by two men and punched by one of them. She claims that she was getting out of the area, when she saw Emma, because of 'rough work' in the area that night. Doesn't that suggest that it's possible that Emma also ran into such a group?

[sdreid]

Yes, it's absolutely possible.

[Mitch Rowe]

The whole affair just shows a person how complicated these cases really are.
Here we have a victim that survives long enough to describe her attacker. And there is still left some doubt as to what happened!

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

Yet Margaret Hames, Emma's lodge mate, was also attacked in Dec. 1887, by a gang in the same area. Plus she stated that that night, she had been harassed by two men and punched by one of them. She claims that she was getting out of the area, when she saw Emma, because of 'rough work' in the area that night. Doesn't that suggest that it's possible that Emma also ran into such a group?

Indeed it does, Celesta. At least it suggests that Emma Smith's account can't be altogether dismissed.
Hayes' incident, where she was attacked by a gang and 'barely survived' (which most certainly must have been the source of the so called 'Christmas murder' and myth of Fairy Fay) has always been the main reason for why I believe in Emma smith's story about a gang.
However, it still leaves the possibility that she elaborated about the location and the timing in order to possibly protect herself from retaliation. Her behaviour at the lodging house and her hesitation to go the hospital suggests that she may not have been completely aware of how badly she was wounded.

All the best

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

The whole affair just shows a person how complicated these cases really are.
Here we have a victim that survives long enough to describe her attacker. And there is still left some doubt as to what happened!

I'm certainly with you on that one, Mitch.

All the best