theory for why Elizabeth Jackson should more closely considered

[Debra A]

Rob, I just found the other name in the papers it was the 'West-end dissector'- mentioned in the Chronicle.

No worries, Dave. I'm more offended by being called Ma'am to be honest.

Neil, thanks for that. ... I knew Rob was moonlighting somewhere.

[protohistorian]

Oh, no Ma'am I do not want you to feel guilty. I am thankful for your contributions, which id why I am lobbying for more of them. Please take no offense. Dave

[Debra A]

I agree! My only wish would be you put something in the examiner so we could have the relevant articles in one place. Since we all use casebook, the examiner seems like the choice to me. I am heavily in debt and cannot afford to play the jackass game of collecting written works scattered over hells half acre. Dave

We all have our cross to bear, Dave
Thing is, I think...and I could be diva-ishly deluded here though, that most of the info on EJ posted here on the bords, came from me or AP years ago.
I have given freely over these years, and have no guilt on this to be honest.

[sdreid]

How about "Dexter the Dissector"? Maybe not

Anyway, Jackson is an interesting unsolved case and if it wasn't JtR it doesn't really detract from that. The Encyclopedia of Unsolved Crimes lists Frances Coles as a murder separate from JtR and, if anything, that adds to the "stature" of the case I think.

[protohistorian]

I agree! My only wish would be you put something in the examiner so we could have the relevant articles in one place. Since we all use casebook, the examiner seems like the choice to me. I am heavily in debt and cannot afford to play the jackass game of collecting written works scattered over hells half acre. Dave

[Monty]

You've never bored me Debs.

This aspect of that period has been grossly ignored for such a long time. Infact you and Rob were there first who bought real light to it. I feel its an important topuc which should be addressed if only to bring an understanding to the situation throughout those years where women were being brutally murdered.

No, not bored at all. Captivated, as well as being educated.

For example, Rob and I have exchanged texts these past two nights (no, not those kind of texts) on Pennett, and Ive learnt a few things.

These 'non canonicals' hold as much interest as the series. Just that there isnt much reading one can do in mainstream works. Both you and Rob are helping to rectify that.

Tis important work you do, and benefits us all.

Monty

[Debra A]

True, but it often bears fruit.



Probably why not many people are interested in them as they are JTR. I wonder if more people would be interested in them if there was a more interesting name? Was the 'Embankment Killer' another one? rings a bell.

Rob

Gosh, freindship is so overrarted!
'Embankment Killer' is an APism I think...think.

Anyway, Pontius....your turn.

[Rob Clack]

Rob, you deserve a medal for putting up with my bossy, divaness (?!)

True, but it often bears fruit.

That's the one...not very catchy though is it?

Probably why not many people are interested in them as they are JTR. I wonder if more people would be interested in them if there was a more interesting name? Was the 'Embankment Killer' another one? rings a bell.

Rob

[Debra A]

Not without your permission

Rob, you deserve a medal for putting up with my bossy, divaness (?!)

Pimlico Dissector?

That's the one...not very catchy though is it?

[Rob Clack]

[unless Rob is moonlighting].

Not without your permission

I wouldn't get too hung up on this as a definition Robert, I am almost sure it is a modern term, probably because no one thought to write a letter and invent a moniker, although the press did have a limp attempt at it. I forget what it was now though, Rob may recall it.

Pimlico Dissector?

Rob

[Debra A]

Hello Dave,

Indeed, lets move foward! Now aday's some have us moving sideways.

Sideways is okay, Corey, it's backwards that's the problem.
I mean,we should consider some of these bodies cast offs of medical experiments or even suicides?!...

[Debra A]

No Debs, you are one of the researchers I have great respect for! I know it sounds trite, but your work has been pushing us forward for a while now and getting shirked by jackasses who say there is no forward movement while they contribute nothing themselves. Well Done! Dave

Thanks Dave, that's really kind of you, genuinely. I was confused.. there are a lot of people writing about the torso's all of a sudden..where were they 5 years ago when I had to bore the arses off Rob, AP and Neil about all this!!
p.s. Mine and Rob's article will be in Rip, I noticed the other day that the Examiner are running something on Elizabeth Jackson in the next issue but that's nothing to do with me or Rob [unless Rob is moonlighting].

now first and foremost, Elizabeth Jackson was NOT a "torso murder". "torso murders" refer to cases where the torso and very little else were recovered. with Elizabeth Jackson, almost the entire body was recovered bit by bit except the head, and (again, going from memory only) a limb and a few organs.

I wouldn't get too hung up on this as a definition Robert, I am almost sure it is a modern term, probably because no one thought to write a letter and invent a moniker, although the press did have a limp attempt at it. I forget what it was now though, Rob may recall it.

[corey123]

Hello Dave,

Indeed, lets move foward! Now aday's some have us moving sideways.

[protohistorian]

No Debs, you are one of the researchers I have great respect for! I know it sounds trite, but your work has been pushing us forward for a while now and getting shirked by jackasses who say there is no forward movement while they contribute nothing themselves. Well Done! Dave

[Debra A]

Hi Pontius
You raise some very interesting points for discussion.Good post.
I would like to just like to quickly respond to a couple of things you mention for now, if that's ok?

look at it this way.....if there had been no "torso murders", then Elizabeth Jackson would have been absolutely positively without any doubt, considered a Ripper victim.

But there were other dismembered bodies to take into consideration and these cannot be ignored in the bigger picture surely? Drs Hebbert and Bond and several police officers were convinced that the dismembered remains found between 1887 and 1889 were all done by the same hand, the mode of disarticulation of the joints was identical, and a sharp knife, used in a skillful manner, and a fine toothed saw, used to saw through the bones, were the implements used in all 4 cases.

You mentioned removal of the head as possible progression from the ripper seemingly 'attempting' to behead earlier victims, but the removal of the head is a feature in 3 of these other dismemberement cases too, two of them occuring before [or one simultaneously] the 'ripper' killed Polly Nichols. If he had already been successful and shown skill in removing heads in 2 previous murders then surely it would have presented no problem when it came to the murder of MJK and he had the time and privacy?

but you have the police, who want the Ripper panic to go away and not come back. and Elizabeth Jackson was conveniently pregnant. so they say, "it was a botched abortion, not a Ripper victim, nothing to see here

Elizabeth Jackson did not die from the effects of a botched abortion, this is absolutely certain. Elizabeth was dead when the child was removed from her womb and this was established by Doctors at the inquest.
Although police did float the idea of an illegal abortion being a motive for the way the body was disposed of at the beginning, this idea was abandoned after hearing the medical evidence. The reason the police probably discounted Elizabeth Jackson as a ripper victim was because they classed her murder and dismemberemnt as being identical with Rainham April 1887, Whitehall late Aug/early Sept 1888 and Pinchin st Sept 1889. Police who had been involved in some of the four cases were consulted at the time of the discovery of the Pinchin Street torso, and gave their opinions that they were linked to each other.

Dave, someone else is writing something too??!