Idiots Folly

[corey123]

Anyhow just for the record the agrument was un needed and was started because we were discussion rather debating and I wasn't reading what was actualy being written, I had a rather cocky additude and well, the rest is obvious. Anyhow, the argument was stupid and rather immature so I'll leave it at that. Also, the title of this thread is bad, I know, but don't take any offense to it. I wrote this thread when I was in a bad mood(for a stupid reason).


Anyhow, everyone has their day's

[corey123]

Hello Errata,

The same hand that killed Kelly? What brought you to that conclusion?

Just out of curiosity.

[Errata]

Personally, I vote for her being killed by the same person who killed Kelly. Who I don't think is the same person as who killed the other 4 in the m5. I think. I don't know why I'm so waffley on the declare. I should just say it and get it over with. And yet I don't.

[corey123]

Hello Dave,

I think the title of the thread was a bad choice. I don't think her inclusion would be stupid choice, just a hard choice. I think the reason for the title was becuase of a(rather stupid) arguement I had with another poster(lol the unknown person) and I was in a rather bad mood when I made this thread.

I think it is possible that Jackson could have been a victim of the ripper, but I think it would be too hard to try and connect them.

I apologize if you found the title offensive, I agree it is. If I could change it I would, but its the past. No I don't think there is a single idiot on this site. Actually I find the word ignorant a better phrase than idion and I don't believe there are many people like that either.

p.s I would also like to add that me and this individual have made up and get along. Like I said the arguement was rather unneeded.

[protohistorian]

I do not think an inclusion of Jackson makes one an idiot. There is a good line of reasoning for her. You seem fairly bright and you think, so I do not think your an idiot either. The same cannot be said of someone with an inflexible definition of the ripper crimes or the man who committed them. Dave

[corey123]

Hello Dave,

You misunderstood me. I do include Stride because it is logical. Eddowes is more elaborate including a longer(supposedly) abdominal wound and facial mutilations.

I never said Tabram was mutilated, I said I believe the initial motive was rage(the result being the murder of Martha Tabram) and he developed, or rather re-developed a fantasy and it evolved throughtout the murder spree. Nichols is a prime example of this, she bears not only abdominal cuts but also stab like wounds going both verticle and horizontal across the abdomen.

I am saying that from Tabram to Kelly the sequence of murders were commeted in stages of evolution. Each murder is more advanced that the one that preceded it. They were each steps.

[protohistorian]

So you are removing Stride from the sequence to support your position. How is Eddowes more elaborate a mutilation than Chapman? Tabram had no mutilations so you are using the absence of something as the proof of something? That is a cartesian loop. Dave

[corey123]

Hello Dave,

Actually it is not a list of traits I use to connect them. Rather a pattern observed. I admit, I do look at certain traits, however, if we only look here we are not taking the big picture.

I don't want to write all of this for the first part of my essay deals with this issue, and that is all I will say about that. However, I will tell you why I think it is easy to see which murder is more likely to fit where.

If you look at the Whitechapel murders as a whole, you can see two distinct patterns in the midst of murders. That being the Ripper and Torso murders. Like I said before, if you look at the murder sequence from Tabram through Kelly, you will see that after each murder, the mutilation becomes more elaborate, the method of submission perfects, and the fantasy becomes more promanent. I look at the murder of Stride and no matter the issues with this, it is explainable about why she had no mutilations, and the predicted response to a failure like that DID happen, the murder of Eddowes. No matter your belief on the aspects on the Stride murder, we can explain away every issue, though it will never satisfy everyone, not even close.

The six murders even fit within a logical time frame, which is why I would be hesitant to include Mackenzie and Coles. With Mackenzie, the mutilations were not one notch, but rather almost three notches down from the murder of Kelly and it happened some six or so months after November 9th! The Coles murder would be more likely if there had been a similar murder of the Eddowes murder, however, there was none! And the date was far from 1888.

Now with the Torso murders, I don't really understand why they would be even close to being linked. The only real similarities with the two cases are the victim type.

Hope this clears some things up.

Yours truly

[protohistorian]

See Corey, this is where we differ, it is far from obvious to me. At least we act civil in disagreeing. I sure hope this catches on. Do me a favor and post up a list your ripper identifiying criteria. Dave

[corey123]

Hello Dave,

I disagree. Obviously these are two very different killers. I also disagree with the notion that he tried to severe the head in two cases. I believe, that if he truly wanted to do this, he would have suceeded in doing so.

I agree however that posing may not be such a big part of the signiture as I thought, but he did pose them. The skirt, the legs being bent, the arm in the abdomen, remember by design. No matter, the fact that Jack the Ripper tried at no length to dispose or hide the body, this itself is almost enough to conclude that they are two different killers.

The motive(although speculartory it is), the MO, all are different in each case.

Also, the time frame in each case points to two totally seperate spree's. One killer(torso) obvioiusly had greater means of transportation that that of the Ripper and the murder's span out by years, while the ripper murders start abrubtly and happen within normal fast intervals then to stop suddenly.

I agree, it is slightly possible, but I think it is absurd to try and connect these two murder spree's.

Yours truly

[protohistorian]

I wanna play too. Basing any conclusion on inclusion on a feature that fluctuates wildly within the sequence is absurd. So ant thought of posing is out in terms of value because it is not an identifying trait of the Macnaughten sequence. Which brings me to features that are present within the sequence, like variation of trophy type. We have 2 established attempts to take the head, organ variation with last confirmed being a heart. So with E.J.'s head being never recovered and her heart the same, we exclude this and resort to some unfixed feature of the Macnaghten sequence? Dave

[corey123]

Adam,

Thanks, sorry for re-creating somewhat your thread. Do you have any ideas about Jackson that you could add to the thread?
Phil,

Thanks Phil,
Ditto what I said above.

[Phil Carter]

Hello Corey,

I vote unsure. I am prepared to accept/reject, and have an open mind. Probably because I need to know a lot more about this murder first.

best wishes

Phil

[Uncle Jack]

Great post Corey. Without looking much more drastically into this murder I have had to vote 'Maybe'. There is evidence for both sides but more research is needed me thinks

[corey123]

Come on,
Vote.

Yours truly