Was Carrie Brown A Ripper Victim?

[Mort Belfry]

The real question is, if Carrie Brown was killed in the exact same circumstances but in Whitechapel, who would then consider her a strong case to be a Ripper victim?

[Supe]

Proto,

but alas, I am an undergrad and frequently get stuff wrong.

So too is Nicole an undergrad--and a particularly bright one.

Don.

[Supe]

Howard,

When Carrie was killed Ripper suspect and trained military surgeon George Chapman was most likely in this area.

In a book review a couple years ago Wolf was quite certain that Chapman had not yet arrived in the USA when Brown was murdered. I hope he notices the thread is again active and clarifies his assertion. He certainly seems to know the Carrie Brown case backwards and forward so I hope he will straighten out the timing.

Don.

[protohistorian]

Hi Stan,



All sounds a bit sketchy to me! It looks a little like the authorities let Ben Ali free because of 'fabricated' new evidence. Maybe they knew that Ben Ali was innocent and devised the story in order to release him.

Bloody shirt? No. 31 Key? Sounds too good to be true (so it probably is)! Why would a killer travel all the way to Jersey and then not dispose of this damning evidence??

Nicole

I think so, she fits into my concetion of Chapman JtR, but alas, I am an undergrad and frequently get stuff wrong.

[sdreid]

Welcome Howard,

Chapman isn't at the top of my suspect list but I certainly haven't struck him off.

[Howard]

'Carrie Brown'

When Carrie was killed Ripper suspect and trained military surgeon George Chapman was most likely in this area.We know he had a barber shop in NJ during this time.He fits the description fairly well of the man seen with Brown.

No crime has to be a Zerox of other crimes regarding a sequential killer.I have researched many serial killers and their murders since 1987 and found this to be true.I say Carrie was close enough!!!

Chapman's wife at the time said that at this time period on one occasion George was attempting to pull a 'large knife' from under a pillow and kill her!She later testified about this incident.What saved her it seems was that a customer came into the shop!

[nicole]

Hi Stan,

I remember reading that and supposedly it pointed to a suspect but the author wasn't releasing the name(??). If I've gotten that right, I'm not sure what the deal was.

All sounds a bit sketchy to me! It looks a little like the authorities let Ben Ali free because of 'fabricated' new evidence. Maybe they knew that Ben Ali was innocent and devised the story in order to release him.

Bloody shirt? No. 31 Key? Sounds too good to be true (so it probably is)! Why would a killer travel all the way to Jersey and then not dispose of this damning evidence??

Nicole

[sdreid]

Hi Nicole,

I remember reading that and supposedly it pointed to a suspect but the author wasn't releasing the name(??). If I've gotten that right, I'm not sure what the deal was.

[nicole]

Hi all,

Does anyone have any more information on the Room #31 key and bloodied shirt that was 'alledgedly' found in a New Jersey farm shortly after the murder of Brown?? (I personally don't recall ever reading anything about this 'alledged' incident until quite recently.)

Nicole

[sdreid]

Hi Wolf,

Yes, I'd heard that about the "Old" business. My guess would be that the confusion arose when an individual used the word as a term of derision like someone who didn't like our recent Presidents would call them old Clinton or old Bush. I don't know if that is a common practice in the UK.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Celesta, You are welcome.

Stan, not only is Brown not listed by name but she was not called "Old Shakespeare" but merely "Shakespeare" by her friends and associates. This caused real problems for the NYPD because there were other people on the Lower East Side, men and women, also nicknamed Shakespeare at the time of Brown's murder. The most famous of these was a woman named Annie Campbell who had been an actress, as Brown had been at one time, and the two women's biographies were mixed up by the police. Much of what we think we know about Carrie Brown is therefore a confusion with the life of Campbell.

Wolf.

[Celesta]

Hi Stan.

Actually, the murder of Carrie Brown was called at the time “the worst murder in the history of New York,” while the police investigation was called “the greatest manhunt in the history of New York.” This was naturally followed by “the greatest trial in the history of New York.” It was big news in its day and some of the cream of New York society scrambled to get seats at the trial. Even our old friend Richard Mansfield, who was playing ‘Beau Brummell’ at the Garden Theatre at the time, sat in on the Ben Ali trial.

Of course the Harris trial in early 1892 made the Brown murder yesterdays news (if it wasn’t already) while Molineux’s trial didn’t even start till November, 1899. As Both were poisoners, or at least Harris was convicted while Molineux was eventually acquitted, that lets them off I should think. Have you read The Devil’s Gentleman by Herold Schechter’? It’s an excellent look at the Molineux case.

Celesta
The man who accompanied Carrie Brown to the East River Hotel was not seen leaving the building and actually how he left was never explained. The police did find blood on the scuttle, or trap door, that led to the roof of the hotel and it was thought that he had escaped over the roof tops. There was no bloody trail however. I talked about the incident of the bloodstained man who entered the Glenview Hotel in my last post. I agree with you that it seems to be a very un-Jack-like thing to do.

Wolf.

Ah ha. Thank you, Wolf, I stand corrected. You also corrected another misconception I had, and that was that Carrie's wounds were closer in nature to Mary Kelly's than it was. Thank you. Celesta

[sdreid]

Hi Wolf,

Yes, one of my sons gave me The Devil's Gentleman for Christmas.

Interesting that Carrie Brown isn't even in the A-Z by name.

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Hi Stan.

Actually, the murder of Carrie Brown was called at the time “the worst murder in the history of New York,” while the police investigation was called “the greatest manhunt in the history of New York.” This was naturally followed by “the greatest trial in the history of New York.” It was big news in its day and some of the cream of New York society scrambled to get seats at the trial. Even our old friend Richard Mansfield, who was playing ‘Beau Brummell’ at the Garden Theatre at the time, sat in on the Ben Ali trial.

Of course the Harris trial in early 1892 made the Brown murder yesterdays news (if it wasn’t already) while Molineux’s trial didn’t even start till November, 1899. As Both were poisoners, or at least Harris was convicted while Molineux was eventually acquitted, that lets them off I should think. Have you read The Devil’s Gentleman by Herold Schechter’? It’s an excellent look at the Molineux case.

Celesta
The man who accompanied Carrie Brown to the East River Hotel was not seen leaving the building and actually how he left was never explained. The police did find blood on the scuttle, or trap door, that led to the roof of the hotel and it was thought that he had escaped over the roof tops. There was no bloody trail however. I talked about the incident of the bloodstained man who entered the Glenview Hotel in my last post. I agree with you that it seems to be a very un-Jack-like thing to do.

Wolf.

[Celesta]

Hello Wolf,

I did read The American Murders of Jack the Ripper and I was struck by what, at the time, I thought was sloppiness on the part of Carrie Brown's killer. This source indicated that the killer had escaped across the roof and had left a trail of blood droplets, right on down into the street. If this is true, it seems most un-Jack-like. In addition, a bloody man went into a---forgive me memory fails---bar or business not too far from the hotel, then left after a brief conversation with a couple of men there. If this was the same man, who killed Carrie, it also seems very un-Jack-like.

Regards,
Celesta