Was Carrie Brown A Ripper Victim?

[Supe]

Christine,

If Chapman were the ripper...
and if he arrived in New York earlier than reported...
and if he killed Carrie Brown...

You are quite right. Enough conditionals there to, as the say is possible in the Bronx, indict a ham sandwich for murder. Or, as the old refrain goes "If I only had some bread I'd make a ham sandwich if I only had some ham." Same sort of circularity.

To paraphrase an old bit of wisdom Protohistorian, "There are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your textbooks." However much you try to fit Klosowski into your schematic in the end it doesn't work if for no other reason than, as Wolf succinctly points out, Severin had not yet severed his ties to Emgland.

Don.

[protohistorian]

If Chapman were the ripper...
and if he arrived in New York earlier than reported...
and if he killed Carrie Brown...

...then we have a series of murders committed by a man who seemed to enjoy changing his M.O., and who seemed to get some sort of pleasure out of various kinds of sadism and depravity, without being compelled to follow any particular patterns.

The problem is that you've got three ifs there, and that any none, two, or all three could be true, but that the bulk of the evidence points to none of the above. When you start allowing three implausible ifs into your calculations, you've got all sorts of possible scenarios, including ones like Walter Sickert racing all over England and France ala Cornwell, as Chris George rightly points out. So while it surely isn't impossible, it's just a little dot on the huge map of possibilities that allow for so many implausible assumptions. That's why I say it's circular, the only reason any one would take this seriously is that they were seriously considering Chapman as a ripper candidate.

I could certainly be wrong about this, but so far as I know, no one is on record mentioning Carrie Brown in connection with Chapman at the time of his arrest and trial, with or without the Ripper connection. Certainly Chapman was named as a possible Ripper, as was just about every other depraved murderer caught later who was anywhere near Whitechapel at the time. This makes me suspect that someone brought Brown up and someone else pointed out that Chapman was definitively still in London, which ended that discussion.

I am reviewind the data on Chapman's arrival in America now. I am not asserting that this WAS the series of events that unfolded, merely that a plausible scenario is to be had in the suspecthood of Chapman. Brown's victim hood fits the pathology well, I never asserted it fit historical fact well.

[protohistorian]

Hello Howard and protohistorian

It seems as if you have "bought" the arguments of R. Michael Gordon as to George Chapman (Severin Klosowski) having been Jack the Ripper, and the Thames Torso Killer as well, which is similar to Ms. Cornwell's argument about all the murders that she attributed to painter Walter Sickert.

The plain fact is that, as we have discussed here in the past Mr. Gordon "over-eggs" or "over-lards" his theory, conveniently accepting some facts and ignoring others that don't fit with Chapman having been the killer.

Chapman seems no more than an outsider for having been Jack the Ripper. As with Dr. Thomas Neill Cream, his modus operandi was that he was a poisoner not a knife murderer or mutilator.

Moreover, Jack's public display of his victims, women who were probably unknown to him before the night of their murder, screams that he wanted people to know about his crimes which is opposite to the way Chapman operated in dispatching his common-law wives. Chapman was a stealthy silent killer, using a secretive method rather than the public method of murder that Jack used.

Chris

Have not yet read Gordan, I am opporating on the assumption that a killer in the condition of the one I suspect, would be very likely to take another victim, for the purpose of experimentation . If I am correct, a killer in the openly exploratory phase is on a hunt to recapture an earlier feeling he had and killing itself, nor crimes like the ones he hsd in the past are fitting his goal. In his mind, more experimentation is required. He views the recaturing of this earlier feeling as a possibility, and believes that experimentation is the most effective methodology he can employ in his quest. I was under the impression that George was in America at the time.

[Christine]

If Chapman were the ripper...
and if he arrived in New York earlier than reported...
and if he killed Carrie Brown...

...then we have a series of murders committed by a man who seemed to enjoy changing his M.O., and who seemed to get some sort of pleasure out of various kinds of sadism and depravity, without being compelled to follow any particular patterns.

The problem is that you've got three ifs there, and that any none, two, or all three could be true, but that the bulk of the evidence points to none of the above. When you start allowing three implausible ifs into your calculations, you've got all sorts of possible scenarios, including ones like Walter Sickert racing all over England and France ala Cornwell, as Chris George rightly points out. So while it surely isn't impossible, it's just a little dot on the huge map of possibilities that allow for so many implausible assumptions. That's why I say it's circular, the only reason any one would take this seriously is that they were seriously considering Chapman as a ripper candidate.

I could certainly be wrong about this, but so far as I know, no one is on record mentioning Carrie Brown in connection with Chapman at the time of his arrest and trial, with or without the Ripper connection. Certainly Chapman was named as a possible Ripper, as was just about every other depraved murderer caught later who was anywhere near Whitechapel at the time. This makes me suspect that someone brought Brown up and someone else pointed out that Chapman was definitively still in London, which ended that discussion.

[protohistorian]

...except that Chapman was still in London on the night that Carrie Brown was murdered.

Wolf.

On what evidence can that be said? Thanks, Wolf that would be a tremendous problem!

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

In terms of my flimsy attempts to work through Chapman's pathology, she fits and very well could be a Chapman victim.

...except that Chapman was still in London on the night that Carrie Brown was murdered.

Wolf.

[ChrisGeorge]

Hello Howard and protohistorian

It seems as if you have "bought" the arguments of R. Michael Gordon as to George Chapman (Severin Klosowski) having been Jack the Ripper, and the Thames Torso Killer as well, which is similar to Ms. Cornwell's argument about all the murders that she attributed to painter Walter Sickert.

The plain fact is that, as we have discussed here in the past Mr. Gordon "over-eggs" or "over-lards" his theory, conveniently accepting some facts and ignoring others that don't fit with Chapman having been the killer.

Chapman seems no more than an outsider for having been Jack the Ripper. As with Dr. Thomas Neill Cream, his modus operandi was that he was a poisoner not a knife murderer or mutilator.

Moreover, Jack's public display of his victims, women who were probably unknown to him before the night of their murder, screams that he wanted people to know about his crimes which is opposite to the way Chapman operated in dispatching his common-law wives. Chapman was a stealthy silent killer, using a secretive method rather than the public method of murder that Jack used.

Chris

[protohistorian]

The problem with this argument is that it's essentially circular. It's fairly easy to imagine the Ripper doing all sorts of clever things, like moving to Australia and opening a hat shop, which would be consistent with the Ripper wanting to move to Australia and open a hat shop. But if we want to know whether Brown was a ripper victim--then no, she lacks certain salient features not found in the acknowledged ripper victims. Obviously, it is not impossible, at least for certain suspects. But neither is the hat shop scenario impossible, it's just arbitrary and doesn't rely on other known facts.

It is not circular by intent, I am merely asserting that if we say Chapman was undergoing a phase of fantasy instability, the consequential result would be experimentation. We see in the Brown crime a marked departure from previous methodologies ( assuming Chapman to be JtR). This fits with what would be expected, and should not come as a surprise.

[protohistorian]

The problem with this argument is that it's essentially circular. It's fairly easy to imagine the Ripper doing all sorts of clever things, like moving to Australia and opening a hat shop, which would be consistent with the Ripper wanting to move to Australia and open a hat shop. But if we want to know whether Brown was a ripper victim--then no, she lacks certain salient features not found in the acknowledged ripper victims. Obviously, it is not impossible, at least for certain suspects. But neither is the hat shop scenario impossible, it's just arbitrary and doesn't rely on other known facts.

That is correct. In the terms of an analytical appraoch, their is no reason to suspect she is. In terms of my flimsy attempts to work through Chapman's pathology, she fits and very well could be a Chapman victim. From what we know of his pathology, a case could be made for her inclusion. I accept that this methodolgy will not "prove chapman killed Ms. Brown or indeed the others, it will only lend a plausible scenario through known facts of his life married with the little we now know regarding psycho-pathological progression among disorganized serials.

[Christine]

This is one of the most perfect descriptions of an diorganized serial expeimenting with different actions within the crime, in a vain attempt to reachieve the thrill of early victim's. If we postulate that The extent of violence in the Kelly crime would be another attempt to achieve this fantasy, and in his mind, is found unsatisfactory and relecting a need for him to keep experimenting. Hence another phase of expiremntation was needed. This in concert with profit motive would also explain later crime scenarios wich we know unfolded wth Chapman. Well, it's an idea anyway. Fire away. Yes I'm saying she could plausibly be a ripper victim under the above descibed scenario anf also fit the current data as I see it. Make it quick you beautiful bastards!! .

The problem with this argument is that it's essentially circular. It's fairly easy to imagine the Ripper doing all sorts of clever things, like moving to Australia and opening a hat shop, which would be consistent with the Ripper wanting to move to Australia and open a hat shop. But if we want to know whether Brown was a ripper victim--then no, she lacks certain salient features not found in the acknowledged ripper victims. Obviously, it is not impossible, at least for certain suspects. But neither is the hat shop scenario impossible, it's just arbitrary and doesn't rely on other known facts.

[protohistorian]

hmmmmmm.......sounds loke experimentation to me!

Sorry for the delay in responding.

Carrie Brown was a desperately poor, white, 55 year old alcoholic part-time prostitute. This would fit with the victimology of the Whitechapel murders. She was last seen alive at 11:00 p.m., Thursday, 23 April, when she and her killer went up to room 31 on the top floor of the East River Hotel. Her body was found at around 9:30 a.m. the next morning lying on the bed of her room (although open to question, there is evidence that she was killed between midnight and 2:00 a.m. on the Friday).

The autopsy revealed that Brown had been struck on the side of the head, manually strangled and then had some of her undergarments wrapped around her neck and head (covering her face) so tightly that the Coroner had to cut them off. It seems that strangulation was the probable cause of death and the mutilations to the body followed shortly after (as stated at both the inquest and the trial of Ameer Ben Ali) although there were opinions that she had died from a combination of strangulation and haemorrhage (death certificate).

Her body was mutilated with cuts to the lower abdomen, a deep one on the left side allowing her intestines to protrude, a series of cuts that ran from the lower abdomen back between her legs and ending just above and to the right of the coccyx. The majority of wounds consisted of a series of light scratches and abrasions to her legs and buttocks. On the bed were found two pieces of intestine and the left ovary (it seems unlikely that the ovary was purposefully removed and was probably detached from the body when the deep cut to the left side of the abdomen was made). Her throat was not cut. The weapon used was a dull, broken 4 in. table-knife which was left at the scene.

Many elements of the Ripper’s MO can be seen mirrored in the murder of Carrie Brown however there are several key differences to keep in mind. She was not murdered in the East End of London but on the Lower East Side of New York. She was not murdered during the “Autumn of Terror” but almost 30 months later. The knife used was dissimilar to the one used in London. Her throat was not cut (this fact alone caused the London police to reject her as a possible Ripper victim) . The murderer of Carrie Brown allowed himself to be seen.

There are also elements of the Ripper’s signature evident in the New York murder. There was the same sexual focus to the violence committed against Brown. There seems to be the same blitz method of attack used to quickly subdue and control the victim through blows to the head and strangulation. Evidence of picquerism.

However, there are also dissimilarities as well. “Overkill” is not evident in the Brown murder. Brown’s body was not displayed in the typical fashion of the London victims – lying on their backs, legs splayed, clothing hiked up to expose the genitals. The Brown murder was not an escalation in violence as seen in the Whitechapel murders and, although the murder took place in relative privacy, the majority of the cuts to the body were shallow with some being described as mere scratches. The Brown murder shows signs of disorganization with a valuable clue, the murder weapon, left at the scene.

It is hard to see why the Whitechapel murderer would lay low for almost 30 months after the murder of Mary Kelly then travel to New York in order to kill one woman and then disappear for good.

Wolf.

This is one of the most perfect descriptions of an diorganized serial expeimenting with different actions within the crime, in a vain attempt to reachieve the thrill of early victim's. If we postulate that The extent of violence in the Kelly crime would be another attempt to achieve this fantasy, and in his mind, is found unsatisfactory and relecting a need for him to keep experimenting. Hence another phase of expiremntation was needed. This in concert with profit motive would also explain later crime scenarios wich we know unfolded wth Chapman. Well, it's an idea anyway. Fire away. Yes I'm saying she could plausibly be a ripper victim under the above descibed scenario anf also fit the current data as I see it. Make it quick you beautiful bastards!! .

[jmenges]

Wasnt Francis Tumbelty in new york around this time?

No.

Tumblety was in all likelihood in Hot Springs, Arkansas on 24 April 1891, since he was robbed there of cash, diamonds and rail road bonds on 17 April 1891.

JM

[cknapp]

Wasnt Francis Tumbelty in new york around this time?

[Wolf Vanderlinden]

Don, your wish is my command.

First off, Klosowski/Chapman was hardly “a trained military surgeon.” He was a surgeon’s assistant which meant he was trained in only the most rudimentary surgical skills. Some have stated that he obtained the rank of junior surgeon, he certainly applied to take the exams, but according to his own papers he was still paying hospital fees to the Warsaw Society of Assistant Surgeons some three months after the exams. He wouldn’t be paying these fees if he was indeed a junior surgeon. It’s not even clear whether he entered the army or not.

Second, Mrs. Stanislaus Rauch, Klosowski’s sister in law, gave evidence at his trial in 1903. She was asked “Had you seen the accused very often before he went to America?” To which Mrs. Rauch replied: “Yes. I came over here in August, and they went to America about the following Whitsuntide.” As Mrs. Rauch had arrived in London in August of 1890 then “the following Whitsuntide” would have been 17 May, 1891, or almost a month after the Brown murder in New York.

Third, Klosowski looked nothing like the man seen entering the East River Hotel with Carrie Brown on the night of her murder. The murderer of Carrie Brown was younger, taller and had blond hair and a blond mustache. Klosowski had dark brown hair and a black mustache.

Fourth, Klosowski’s supposed attack on his wife with a butcher knife has been blown way out of proportion. She found the knife, asked what it was for, was jokingly told he was going to use it to cut her head off, there was an argument and his wife took the knife away.

Fifth, the wounds to Brown’s body were not consistent with those of the Ripper’s victim’s. She was not murdered by Jack the Ripper.

Wolf.

[Gideon Fell]

No she wasn't another Ripper victim.