Was Mackenzie a copycat?

[Mr Lucky]

What I was pointing out really is that there is the possibility one could make an argument that Pollys murder was incomplete,.. the same argument cannot be made in the case of Liz Stride.

No you can't make an argument that the Nichols murder was 'incomplete' at all. The idea's is plainly nonsense, a murders a murder. Was Tabram's murder 'incomplete' ? Do you just randomly pick and choose here or what, Nichols - incomplete murder, Stride - complete murder, what about the others?

We have actions in the first murder that seem to indicate a sequence when juxtaposed with the second.....which is a valid perspective Mr Lucky, not revisionist based on Chapman, but as a comparative when we can assume, safely, that the same man committed both murders. The coroner thought so, and so did the physician in Annies case.

What actions? the fact that the killer of Nichols could have removed her uterus but made no attempt to do so, choosing instead to use his time to randomly rip up her abdomen?

There is no evidence from the Nichols crime scene that suggests Nichols killer was interrupted, none.

To suggest an interruption one must carry a burden of proof....there is the possibility based on Pollys wounds that could have been the case, there is no such evidence in Berner Street

Nichols abdomen had been stabbed and ripped up using a moderately sharp knife in the dark, this would have required some time to do, so we know that if the killer had wanted to have extracted her uterus, he could have at least started the process. He had chosen not to do this - this isn't evidence that he was interrupted. This is evidence that he wasn't trying to take her uterus.

[Michael W Richards]

Hello Mike. Thanks.

Well, I know what you mean. However, I try not to posit something unless there is tangible evidence for it.

Cheers.
LC

If you find an open door in your house can you conclude decisively based on that simple fact whether the door was used to leave the room or to enter it?

Your point is understood Lynn. But I would again suggest that we do have tangible evidence that Pollys killer sought to open her abdomen, after choking her, and slicing her neck twice. Since Annies killer does basically the same move in a different location, we might well "posit" about the poorly chosen first venue and the lack of extractions.

Cheers mate

[GregBaron]

Murderous Interruptous...

Hi gentlemen,

I see no reason why Mr. Ripper couldn't have been interrupted by Cross at the end of the street. Nichols was warm and not long in situ.

In addition to Stride, I could see Coles or Mackenzie as being interrupted. It's not easy to have the privacy to rip-em-to-bits in a very crowded East end with coppers afoot.


Greg

[Michael W Richards]

Hi gentlemen,

I see no reason why Mr. Ripper couldn't have been interrupted by Cross at the end of the street. Nichols was warm and not long in situ.


Greg

Precisely Greg, although I dont agree with the balance of the post personally.

Comparatively, the killer of Annie Chapman chose the same type of victim as the first murdered woman, thats Step 1...... at a time well after 2am, thats Step 2.... they were both choked then had their throats in almost identical fashion, Step 3..... unusually making 2 deep cuts to the throat, he then placed both of them on their backs with their legs spread, Step 4.... he then opened both of the womens abdomens, Step 5,... and only in the backyard at Hanbury, off the street and less likely to be interrupted by passers by on the street, he extracted organs, Step 6

Again, its on record that virtually all the relevant professional opinions concluded that both women were killed by the same man, and when seen as a murder that has a sequence of events that are relatively identical, its only logical to wonder whether the omission of Step 6 in the first murder, and the discovery and condition of Polly, were only due to the far more exposed venue, and perhaps inexperience.

Clearly the only real difference in the 2 murders are the organs and the venue.

Cheers

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hey GB

Hi gentlemen,

I see no reason why Mr. Ripper couldn't have been interrupted by Cross at the end of the street. Nichols was warm and not long in situ.

In addition to Stride, I could see Coles or Mackenzie as being interrupted. It's not easy to have the privacy to rip-em-to-bits in a very crowded East end with coppers afoot.


Greg

That's a reasonable possibility. Cut it out. Or maybe Crossmere to be interupted by Paul. Hope you can hear the creepy music too. Couldn't resist.

[lynn cates]

plans

Hello Mike. Thanks.

"Your point is understood Lynn. But I would again suggest that we do have tangible evidence that Polly's killer sought to open her abdomen, after choking her, and slicing her neck twice. Since Annie's killer does basically the same move in a different location, we might well "posit" about the poorly chosen first venue and the lack of extractions."

We might, GIVEN we knew what his plans (if any) were.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

pardon the interruption . . .

Hello Greg.

"I see no reason why Mr. Ripper couldn't have been interrupted by Cross at the end of the street."

Indeed. Nor that Stride's killer . . .

My problem is that there is no evidence to support it. And ALL interruptions are in place to endorse a theory.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Evidently no evidence...

My problem is that there is no evidence to support it. And ALL interruptions are in place to endorse a theory.

I have no theories Master Lynn except one: I theorize that a dozen women were murdered in London from 1888-91 by unknown assailants.....

If we stick to the evidence there is little to discuss and we might as well move to the Black Dahlia case...



Greg

[Mr Lucky]

Hi gentlemen,

I see no reason why Mr. Ripper couldn't have been interrupted by Cross at the end of the street. Nichols was warm and not long in situ.

Hi Greg

Well, Cross neither hears nor sees anyone flee the scene. The fact she was recently murdered isn't what's being questioned at all. However, if your suggestion that the killer was interrupted is correct and Cross just didn't notice, that doesn't change the fact that there was no attempt to extract Nichols uterus, but the killer has had enough time to attack her stomach lining. Llewellyn is a surgeon, yet he just calls the murder a 'brutal affair' not interrupted surgery.

In short, the fact a killer is interrupted does not automatically lead to the conclusion that he was attempting to steal the victims organs, and in this case there is no evidence Nichols killer was interrupted, or that he was trying to steal her organs.

[lynn cates]

in utero

Hello Greg. Thanks.

Very well. But why even assume Polly's slayer wanted a uterus?

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Offal evolution...

Gentlemen,

I'm not suggesting Polly's slayer wanted a uterus or anything else. I'm simply saying he may have heard Cross's footsteps and skedaddled before Cross saw him or the body. Or maybe he heard some old crone opening a window above the street......Who knows....? No evidence doesn't mean didn't happen...if a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound...?

Maybe the desire for organs was evolutionary; he went from cutting to uterus to kidney to heart....if he only had a brain...!


Greg

[lynn cates]

evolving/devolving

Hello Greg.

"Maybe the desire for organs was evolutionary."

OK. But evolving towards what?

Cheers.
LC

[Mr Lucky]

I'm not suggesting Polly's slayer wanted a uterus or anything else. I'm simply saying he may have heard Cross's footsteps and skedaddled before Cross saw him or the body. Or maybe he heard some old crone opening a window above the street......Who knows....? No evidence doesn't mean didn't happen...if a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound...?

Hi Greg,

Yes , the killer of Nichols could have been interrupted/ disturbed, I agree Who knows... indeed(only the killer), but on that basis the killer of any of the victim could have been interrupted, even Kelly. However, the two victims that are commonly believed to have been interrupted killings are those of Nichols and Stride, and both are only considered to have been interrupted due to what happened to the next victim. No one seen or heard fleeing in either case, No PC Thompson in either case.

[GregBaron]

Unnatural selection...

Yes , the killer of Nichols could have been interrupted/ disturbed, I agree Who knows... indeed(only the killer), but on that basis the killer of any of the victim could have been interrupted, even Kelly. However, the two victims that are commonly believed to have been interrupted killings are those of Nichols and Stride, and both are only considered to have been interrupted due to what happened to the next victim. No one seen or heard fleeing in either case, No PC Thompson in either case.

I agree with you Mr. Lucky and hence the need to assess each case separately as the multiplicitists (sic) demand...

OK. But evolving towards what?

An evolution toward total possession of the victim as seen in other cannibal types........Perhaps?


Greg

[Abby Normal]

Gentlemen,

I'm not suggesting Polly's slayer wanted a uterus or anything else. I'm simply saying he may have heard Cross's footsteps and skedaddled before Cross saw him or the body. Or maybe he heard some old crone opening a window above the street......Who knows....? No evidence doesn't mean didn't happen...if a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound...?

Maybe the desire for organs was evolutionary; he went from cutting to uterus to kidney to heart....if he only had a brain...!


Greg

Hi Greg
Agree with you. Considering where these murders were taking place any of them could have been interrupted, most likely Stride, nichols, McKenzie.