Was Mackenzie a copycat?

[Jon Guy]

I think the idea that there were as many as eight killers in Whitechapel at one time is highly unlikely.

Absolutely John.

The idea of 8 murders in Whitechapel at one time is highly unlikely too. It was a rare occurance.

[Garry Wroe]

I find that reasoning a tad modern ... Simply put, I don't think the late Victorian mind-set was as ours might be.

Human psychology has remained unchanged for thousands of years. The Victorians were subject to the the same drives and emotions as we experience today. Were this not the case, Jack the Ripper would not have come to be regarded as the archetypal serial killer. Since his methods and apparent motivations are reflected in the crimes of Sutcliffe, Samples, Rader, Shawcross and many, many others, there can be no doubt that he was affected by external factors and pressures (a police investigation coming too close to home, for example) in much the same way as are his latter-day counterparts. None whatever.

[Phil H]

I must disagree Gary.

As an historian, I accept that the basic drives are much the same through time, but they are always filtered through the norms, and culture of particular societies.

Concepts and ideas that have not been given names (by thinkers) may be expressed but will be called by different names, or expressed in different ways.

thus, pre-Freud, people did not tend to think in terms of "sexuality" as we now do. So whatever they might have done or thought it would have been EXPRESSED in a differen way.

If Kosminski were the Ripper, as an example, he might have had cunning, but I don't see him understanding concepts such as modus operandi, and thus being able to alter his methods.

Some who has, today, watched CSI, Morse or prime Suspect might know about such things. in the LVP they did not. Indeed, I doubt the police in 1888had fully worked it out - in terms of implications.

Phil

[lynn cates]

seriality

Hello Abby.

"Yes a veritable broadway musical of serial killers traipsing across the stage. Shall we give them all umbrellas and have them perform Singin' in the Rain?"

Why are they "serial killers"? If you kill one or even two, that does not make you a serial killer.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

killers on the loose

Hello John.

"I think the idea that there were as many as eight killers in Whitechapel at one time is highly unlikely."

Actually, there were more. Have a go at the police reports in the papers.

Cheers.
LC

[John Wheat]

To Lynn

I think the idea that there were more than eight killers in Whitechapel at one time is a ridiculous notion.

Cheers John

[DVV]

Hi John


Are you sure it's eight ?
I thought Isenchmid killed twice...

Cheers

[Jon Guy]

Lets not forget murderers William Bury, William Seamen and George Chapman who were also roaming around the area, if not involved in the Whitechapel murder cases. Will be a few others as well.

[John Wheat]

To clarify things I think the idea that eight seperate individuals were responsible for the Whitechapel murders as has been suggested in this thread is highly unlikely.

[Phil H]

Don't forget a non-existent murder got invented (Fairy Fay) - as if there ween't enough - so anything is possible.

Is the possibility of multiple murderers really so unthinkable?

We accept in a general sort of way that Smith, Tabram, Mckenzie, Coles and others might be (probably are in some cases) victims of someone other than "Jack". We also accept that the Torso Killer is a different individual. So a principle is established.

I see clearly three of the canonicals can be linked (Nichols, Chpaman, Eddowes), but I do not discount one-off domestics for Stride and Kelly. We know there was another "domestic" on the night of Stride's death.

The press-hype around the Whitechapel killings could surely have brought killers to the area (after all the total number of deaths simply depends on where you draw the boundaries). Add to that possible copy-cats, using the ripper as cover for their own homicides - which is surely not impossible.

I honestly don't think teh concept of multiple killers is that astonishing. maybe not recognising it is part of our problem.

Phil

[GregBaron]

Nutjobs and nutters...

Yes a veritable broadway musical of serial killers traipsing across the stage. Shall we give them all umbrellas and have them perform Singin in the Rain?
Just kidding-sorry couldn't resist.

Tis true Abby…..I’d love to see Monty Python do a musical…

Actually, there were more. Have a go at the police reports in the papers.

Hey all, Perhaps the murder binge was a result of the “Jekyll and Hyde” effect…?

Maybe the madness of the play pushed some borderline nutters over the edge…



Greg

[Jon Guy]

Hi Greg

Hey all, Perhaps the murder binge was a result of the “Jekyll and Hyde” effect…?

From memory, I don`t think Jekyll and Hyde play was doing that well ticket wise at the time of the murders. I think they may have even closed the show due to poor ticket sales. Could be wrong here but I don`t think it was in the public consciousness like we imagine it.

[DRoy]

John Wheat,

Hey Bud, nice to see you outside from the you-know-who thread! That isn't sarcasm by the way.

To clarify things I think the idea that eight seperate individuals were responsible for the Whitechapel murders as has been suggested in this thread is highly unlikely.

I agree with you. Eight seems a little much especially considering most believe in the 'canonical' being from one hand. However, I do think we all should consider the idea that not every murder attributed to 'Jack' should necessarily be considered the absolute truth as those opinions differed even from the most senior officials.

Cheers
DRoy

[Michael W Richards]

Don't forget a non-existent murder got invented (Fairy Fay) - as if there ween't enough - so anything is possible.

Is the possibility of multiple murderers really so unthinkable?

We accept in a general sort of way that Smith, Tabram, Mckenzie, Coles and others might be (probably are in some cases) victims of someone other than "Jack". We also accept that the Torso Killer is a different individual. So a principle is established.

I see clearly three of the canonicals can be linked (Nichols, Chpaman, Eddowes), but I do not discount one-off domestics for Stride and Kelly. We know there was another "domestic" on the night of Stride's death.

The press-hype around the Whitechapel killings could surely have brought killers to the area (after all the total number of deaths simply depends on where you draw the boundaries). Add to that possible copy-cats, using the ripper as cover for their own homicides - which is surely not impossible.

I honestly don't think teh concept of multiple killers is that astonishing. maybe not recognising it is part of our problem.

Phil

I would agree with you here Phil, and in terms of an actual Canonical Group you may be comforted to know at least one expert Ive spoken with on this matter agrees with those 3 victims as the total. There are characteristic differences with the Eddowes murder that prevent myself and other from associating her with the previous murderer outright, but there is no denying the similarities. Its close....but no cigar, as we N. Americans put it.

The Whitechapel Murder file contains what is it....13 unsolved murders over the period of some 5 years or so? Im sorry I cant recall specifically the number of files offhand. At least 11 I believe. They include some Torsos.....which I would associate with a lone killer. Thats one. Lets use the Canonical Group of three as one spree..thats 2. Mary Kelly was very probably killed by someone close to her and this person neednt have killed before or after...in that, there is ample evidence that the killer did not mutilate the corpse with any preset plan, in fact he abandons acts midstream. He seems a novice, and at times, an angry one at that. So thats 3 then. Stride may have been a case of the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong bloke....but we dont need to assume this man killed as a general rule based on any known evidence....Thats 4......and the evidence within the Tabram case seems to suggest 1 or 2 killers. Thats 5 or 6.

And we still have victims to account for. Even if one of the remaining murderers kills another of the unsolved murders as well, thats still well in excess of 6 men, at least, who would be guilty of murder. All living in or around the area at the same time,....all the victims from the poorer classes,....and the women dispatched primarily with strangulation and knives.

I believe that the most reasonable approach to solving the mystery that is the Jack the Ripper cases is one that views these cases as independent murders, then marries one victim with another based primarily on what the killer did in each case. Specifically. When there are dramatic deviations the case file needs to be left as a standalone.

In the worst district perhaps in the UK at the time, with the poorest people, severe overpopulation, and a large and often inebriated street population wandering in the dark, one that is comprised of faceless, forgotten people....I can see violent crimes like some of these occurring quite naturally.

Cheers Phil

[DRoy]

Mike,

I believe that the most reasonable approach to solving the mystery that is the Jack the Ripper cases is one that views these cases as independent murders, then marries one victim with another based primarily on what the killer did in each case. Specifically. When there are dramatic deviations the case file needs to be left as a standalone.

Agreed. The difficult part as a student is coming in and doing just that when history says it is the canonical 5 at least.

In the worst district perhaps in the UK at the time, with the poorest people, severe overpopulation, and a large and often inebriated street population wandering in the dark, one that is comprised of faceless, forgotten people....I can see violent crimes like some of these occurring quite naturally.

Also agree with you here. The problem being that anyone cut with a knife was attributed to 'Jack' until proven otherwise instead of it being the other way around.

That being said, there are enough similarities to some of the murders that were attributed to 'Jack' to at least consider MacKenzie as a possible victim of the 'Jack'.

Cheers
DRoy