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McKenzie - Ripper or not?

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  • #46
    I would say probably not. Insofar that would had he been doing for the previous six or so months.
    I understand the possibility that he could have been away- abroad, in prison, laying low etc. And the MOD was similar but not as pronounced as in previous cases.
    Until recently I would have said yes. And it would not take a lot of persuading to convince me again that it was a the same person- 'Our Jack'.

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by hanway3 View Post
      I would say probably not. Insofar that would had he been doing for the previous six or so months.
      I understand the possibility that he could have been away- abroad, in prison, laying low etc. And the MOD was similar but not as pronounced as in previous cases.
      Until recently I would have said yes. And it would not take a lot of persuading to convince me again that it was a the same person- 'Our Jack'.
      Hi Hanway
      I was undecided until recently but now I am pretty much convinced she was:

      same victimology
      same location
      same time frame-night
      unsolved
      killed with knife
      throat cut
      left carteroid artery severed
      two cuts to neck
      neck cut while lying on ground
      abdomen/pelvic/ privates targeted and cut(ripped)
      High level (munroe)police at the time believed she was a ripper victim
      Dr believed she was a ripper victim
      Found lying on back
      And the clincher for me-found with skirt pushed up-like the others, including Tabram.

      She was a ripper victim.
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • #48
        Having read the information about George Hutchinson in the preview for Ripperologist 146, I am minded, almost, to revert back to my earlier opinion that Alice was a victim of Jack's.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by hanway3 View Post
          Having read the information about George Hutchinson in the preview for Ripperologist 146, I am minded, almost, to revert back to my earlier opinion that Alice was a victim of Jack's.
          yes. I actually came to the conclusion she was a ripper victim before the article came out, but it has also bolstered my opinion that she was.

          Ive always had hutch and Blotchy 1 and 1a on my least weak ripper suspect list and prior to the article I was leaning toward Blotchy. since the article however, I now lean toward Hutch.
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • #50
            I think I initially voted yes, but now I'm undecided. The difficulty, as I see it, is that McKenzie would represent a major de-escalation, which is problematic considering that JtR seems to have exhibited a pattern of escalating violence.

            Okay, you could probably expect a degree of de-escalation from Kelly, however, there was substantially less overkill than even the earlier Whitechapel victims. Nicholls, for instance, suffered very deep abdominal injuries and had been virtually decapitated. In contrast, the abdominal injuries inflicted on McKenzie were somewhat superficial, and the neck injuries were less severe than even Stride. In fact it could be argued that there is little evidence of overkill at all, which is problematic as this seemed to be an obvious signature characteristic of JtR (it's worth pointing out that even with Ellen Bury a deep abdominal wound was inflicted.) And, of course, unlike Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly no organs were removed.

            That said, McKenzie was killed in Whitechapel. Moreover, there were two stab wounds in the left side of the neck, and it's been argued that parallel cuts were inflicted on the neck of both Nicholls and Chapman, which seems a little coincidental.

            However, if McKenzie was a Ripper victim I think he must have been ill or incapacitated in some way. That at least would explain the 7 month gap since Kelly's murder, and why there may have been no other victims.
            Last edited by John G; 10-14-2015, 08:13 AM.

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
              Hi Hanway
              I was undecided until recently but now I am pretty much convinced she was:

              same victimology
              same location
              same time frame-night
              unsolved
              killed with knife
              throat cut
              left carteroid artery severed
              two cuts to neck
              neck cut while lying on ground
              abdomen/pelvic/ privates targeted and cut(ripped)
              High level (munroe)police at the time believed she was a ripper victim
              Dr believed she was a ripper victim
              Found lying on back
              And the clincher for me-found with skirt pushed up-like the others, including Tabram.

              She was a ripper victim.
              Look at the cuts on her abdomen compared to Polly Nichols. They are almost identical except the number of them. Same two directions. Horizontal and vertical! Imagine that.

              Comment


              • #52
                Interesting that people think that McKenzie was more likely a Ripper victim than Ellen Bury. Even though Ellen Bury's abdominal mutilations were deeper and her face had been disfigured (like Eddowes, Kelly). Does it all come down to the cut throat?

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by Harry D View Post
                  Interesting that people think that McKenzie was more likely a Ripper victim than Ellen Bury. Even though Ellen Bury's abdominal mutilations were deeper and her face had been disfigured (like Eddowes, Kelly). Does it all come down to the cut throat?
                  For me Harry there needs to be three components....double cut throat, legs splayed, abdominal/pelvic mutilations.
                  Michael Richards

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                    For me Harry there needs to be three components....double cut throat, legs splayed, abdominal/pelvic mutilations.
                    McKenzie had all three components, Mike.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post
                      McKenzie had all three components, Mike.
                      I realize that Jon, I was addressing the comparison with Bury. I personally believe that whomever killed Kate Eddowes possibly killed Alice. I believe the person who killed Polly and Annie was off the streets after those first 2 murders.
                      Michael Richards

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                        I realize that Jon, I was addressing the comparison with Bury. I personally believe that whomever killed Kate Eddowes possibly killed Alice. I believe the person who killed Polly and Annie was off the streets after those first 2 murders.
                        Aha, I thought that with those credentials she might have made your canon, Mike.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          The details I have read about the case make me struggle NOT to include her as a ripper victim.

                          The main reason I can see for excluding her is if the person reading the details has a specific suspect in mind whom is not compatible (for one example Druitt, but there are lots of suspects who could not be responsible for Alice)

                          The fact that she happens a bit later, well, she happens a bit later.
                          But what happens to her is extremely compelling to include her in the series.

                          So, what have I missed?

                          Can anyone talk me out of linking Alice McKenzie to the Whitechapel Murder series?

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            No Vote -- Fingernail marks

                            After reading through Information on Alice McKenzie and pondering it, I have arrived at a "no" it's not likely she was a victim of the man we call Jack the Ripper.


                            My no is based on Dr. George Bagster Phillips' inquest testimony on Day 3, Wednesday, August 14th, 1889:

                            There were five marks on the abdomen, and, with the exception of one, were on the left side of the abdomen. The largest one was the lowest, and the smallest one was the exceptional one mentioned, and was typical of a finger-nail mark. They were coloured, and in my opinion were caused by the finger-nails and thumb nail of a hand. I have on a subsequent examination assured myself of the correctness of this conclusion.

                            [Coroner] Are the injuries to the abdomen similar to those you have seen in the other cases? - No, Sir. I may volunteer the statement that the injuries to the throat are not similar to those in the other cases.

                            FINGERNAIL MARKS?

                            anyone?

                            curious

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by curious View Post
                              After reading through Information on Alice McKenzie and pondering it, I have arrived at a "no" it's not likely she was a victim of the man we call Jack the Ripper.


                              My no is based on Dr. George Bagster Phillips' inquest testimony on Day 3, Wednesday, August 14th, 1889:

                              There were five marks on the abdomen, and, with the exception of one, were on the left side of the abdomen. The largest one was the lowest, and the smallest one was the exceptional one mentioned, and was typical of a finger-nail mark. They were coloured, and in my opinion were caused by the finger-nails and thumb nail of a hand. I have on a subsequent examination assured myself of the correctness of this conclusion.

                              [Coroner] Are the injuries to the abdomen similar to those you have seen in the other cases? - No, Sir. I may volunteer the statement that the injuries to the throat are not similar to those in the other cases.

                              FINGERNAIL MARKS?

                              anyone?

                              curious
                              Hi curious,

                              The fingernail marks were, of course, from a hand being placed on her abdomen. Not sure if you're thinking the fingernail marks were the actual cuts to the abdomen. They were not.

                              Seven inches below right nipple commenced a wound seven inches long, in a downwards direction inclining first inwards then outwards. Deepest at upper part. Wound in abdomen but abdominal cavity not opened. Scoring the right side of abdomen are seven dermal marks tailing inwards to the major wound, and seven similar scorings between this wound and the pubis, one distinctly becoming deeper over the pubis.

                              There was also a small cut over the mons veneris.

                              To me, these wounds are of a "doodling" nature, comparable to what the killer of Eddowes did to her face and eyelids. The wounds to Alice's abdomen were all done post mortem and targeted the abdomen and genital area. Her skirt was thrown up to her chin as in other cases. Although the neck wound appears to be different than the other victims, it is similar in that there were two cuts to the throat as in other cases.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                                Hi curious,

                                The fingernail marks were, of course, from a hand being placed on her abdomen. Not sure if you're thinking the fingernail marks were the actual cuts to the abdomen. They were not.

                                Seven inches below right nipple commenced a wound seven inches long, in a downwards direction inclining first inwards then outwards. Deepest at upper part. Wound in abdomen but abdominal cavity not opened. Scoring the right side of abdomen are seven dermal marks tailing inwards to the major wound, and seven similar scorings between this wound and the pubis, one distinctly becoming deeper over the pubis.

                                There was also a small cut over the mons veneris.

                                To me, these wounds are of a "doodling" nature, comparable to what the killer of Eddowes did to her face and eyelids. The wounds to Alice's abdomen were all done post mortem and targeted the abdomen and genital area. Her skirt was thrown up to her chin as in other cases. Although the neck wound appears to be different than the other victims, it is similar in that there were two cuts to the throat as in other cases.
                                Hello, Jerry,
                                Thanks for replying.

                                Would you please tell me where you found that information?

                                Thanks, again,

                                curious

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