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McKenzie - Ripper or not?

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  • Jon Guy
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Also we have a superficial cut only an eighth of an inch deep across the mons veneris.


    Both Tabram and Nichols had a similar stab.

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

    One might also think that heightened alertness would have made any near misses more pronounced Sam.
    More alertness would mean that he'd have been more on his guard, too, so fewer encounters, not more. It is, I think, highly significant that the biggest gap between murders happened after H Division had been heavily reinforced and the Vigilance Committee had really found its voice.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

    This might tell us more about the after-effects of a murder than the murders themselves. Namely, that in the first couple of weeks after a successful kill, people - the police, the general populace and potential victims - became more alert, making it harder for the killer to "score". After three or four weeks, perhaps people's guards were slipping, making it easier for a killer to succeed.

    (Some might say that Nichols-to-Chapman doesn't fit that pattern, but who would have foreseen that there'd be a series of "ripping" murders after Buck's Row?)
    One might also think that heightened alertness would have made any near misses more pronounced Sam. I don't seem to recall a whole bunch, or even a few, close calls reported during the intervals between kills...unless you count Ms Kennedys/Lewis's report perhaps. But one would think that had he attempted to do what he did with the prior kills during those "dormant" periods, it would have been newsworthy.

    To Abby...Queen Vicky speculated about people on cattle boats...who arrived at the end of the month and departed at the beginning of the next.

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Jon Guy View Post

    Someone on a monthly salary cheque would have money to go out at the end or begining of a month
    Trouble is, Mary Kelly was killed in the 2nd week of the month, and Chapman at the very end of the first week. If someone was paid weekly, however - as a working class person might be - then Friday/Saturday/Sunday would be the three days when they'd have had some money in their pockets, regardless of the month. Not that the Ripper would necessarily have needed much, if any, money about his person.
    Last edited by Sam Flynn; 07-24-2019, 05:32 PM.

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  • Herlock Sholmes
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post
    . I'm also unsure why you don't consider that the killer was interrupted, this seems the most likely reason to me for reduced mutilations.
    I think that if the killer had time to make a not very deep cut then he had time to simply apply more pressure and make a deeper, more ripper-like mutilation. Also we have a superficial cut only an eighth of an inch deep across the mons veneris. Why was he piffling around in the street when heíd have known that someone could have approached at any time?

    .
    The C5 did not all occur at a weekend. I don't think the weekend as we think of it had really been invented. Most people worked five and a half day weeks, only finishing at lunchtime on Saturdays. So the killer striking twice on a Thursday night, once on a Friday night, and twice on (the same) Saturday night doesn't indicate to me that he waited until he'd finished his week's work - three out of the four attack nights had working days before and after.

    Of course, he may not have worked at all, or only casually, or cyclically, or not cared if he was dog-tired the next day, or took stimulants, or was an insomniac, etc etc. Maybe he was Tyler Durden?
    I donít understand this Joshua but perhaps Iím getting this wrong (I am hopeless with days and dates)

    Nichols - 31st August - Friday.
    Chapman - 8th September - Saturday.
    Stride/Eddowes - 30th September - Sunday.
    Kelly - 9th November - Friday.

    As we donít know the killers personal circumstances all that Iím saying is that these days might have been significant. What if he worked for himself and only came to Central London at the weekend? There might have been another reason that he only killed at the weekend. Of course these days might have been completely irrelevant too.




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  • Jon Guy
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    hi Michael
    yes-its a point ive brought up before too-the murders only seem to happen in beginning or end of month. and like my previous question (re the days of the week he worked)--is there any profession that would not be condusive to going out hunting in the middle of the month-like being away on travel for example during the middle of the month?
    Someone on a monthly salary cheque would have money to go out at the end or begining of a month

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    Im not one for application of Numerology to solve these, Moon phases, nor do I see any strong arguments for specific days of the week/weekend, but I admit Im curious as to why none of the Canonical murders take place after the 9th of the month.
    This might tell us more about the after-effects of a murder than the murders themselves. Namely, that in the first couple of weeks after a successful kill, people - the police, the general populace and potential victims - became more alert, making it harder for the killer to "score". After three or four weeks, perhaps people's guards were slipping, making it easier for a killer to succeed.

    (Some might say that Nichols-to-Chapman doesn't fit that pattern, but who would have foreseen that there'd be a series of "ripping" murders after Buck's Row?)
    Last edited by Sam Flynn; 07-24-2019, 03:49 PM.

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
    Im not one for application of Numerology to solve these, Moon phases, nor do I see any strong arguments for specific days of the week/weekend, but I admit Im curious as to why none of the Canonical murders take place after the 9th of the month. There is a large gap in September and Oct between murders, it seems that its either the beginning of the month...or end of the month. In September in particular that strikes me as interesting, because from Polly to Annie is only 10 days...and then this long break until months end. It suddenly resumes the week Kate gets back and the week Liz breaks up with Kidney.
    hi Michael
    yes-its a point ive brought up before too-the murders only seem to happen in beginning or end of month. and like my previous question (re the days of the week he worked)--is there any profession that would not be condusive to going out hunting in the middle of the month-like being away on travel for example during the middle of the month?

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
    I wouldn't have thought so, Abs. Anyone in regular employment would be lucky to get a weekend off, never mind three days.
    thanks Sam
    probably. but my first job out of college was schlepping Gallo products (booze). Id visit my clients-liquor stores and restuarants- during the week, take there orders and submit them to the warehouse, and the customers would then get there product delivered by our drivers the next day. Since we were closed on Saturdays, and no deliveries would be made, there was no visiting customers on Friday.so basically, we worked Mon-Thursday.

    I was just wondering if there could be any type deal like that going on then.

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  • Michael W Richards
    replied
    Im not one for application of Numerology to solve these, Moon phases, nor do I see any strong arguments for specific days of the week/weekend, but I admit Im curious as to why none of the Canonical murders take place after the 9th of the month. There is a large gap in September and Oct between murders, it seems that its either the beginning of the month...or end of the month. In September in particular that strikes me as interesting, because from Polly to Annie is only 10 days...and then this long break until months end. It suddenly resumes the week Kate gets back and the week Liz breaks up with Kidney. Then, a month long gap.

    I believe that the man that killed Polly killed so soon after because he either wasn't sated or had increased appetite. So why would he then stop until the end of the month?
    Last edited by Michael W Richards; 07-24-2019, 02:56 PM.

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

    The C5 did not all occur at a weekend. I don't think the weekend as we think of it had really been invented. Most people worked five and a half day weeks, only finishing at lunchtime on Saturdays. So the killer striking twice on a Thursday night, once on a Friday night, and twice on (the same) Saturday night doesn't indicate to me that he waited until he'd finished his week's work - three out of the four attack nights had working days before and after.
    The problem is that all we have to go on are 4 instances of successful strikes over barely two months. With such a small sample - in terms of both numbers and time - it's hard to draw any clear inferences.

    Also, isn't it more accurate to say that the killer struck, not twice on a Thursday night, but twice on a Friday morning? Ditto for the Double Event and Kelly, on a Sunday and Saturday morning, respectively.

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  • Sam Flynn
    replied
    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

    any type of work that was only Monday-Thursday?
    I wouldn't have thought so, Abs. Anyone in regular employment would be lucky to get a weekend off, never mind three days.

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

    There could be any number of explanations for the scratches, HS. I don't think the killer sat there doodling them with his knife. Most likely they were incidental fingernail marks, so could have been made at the same time as pulling her clothing up. Or when pulling the skin taut when cutting. They may also have been made by rings on the killer's hand, or perhaps one of those knives with integral knuckle-duster. If I recall there were similar parallel scratches on her jaw. And I think Phillips theorised that the cut to the genital area could have been made accidentally by the killer lifting her skirts with the knife in his hand.

    I'm also unsure why you don't consider that the killer was interrupted, this seems the most likely reason to me for reduced mutilations.



    The C5 did not all occur at a weekend. I don't think the weekend as we think of it had really been invented. Most people worked five and a half day weeks, only finishing at lunchtime on Saturdays. So the killer striking twice on a Thursday night, once on a Friday night, and twice on (the same) Saturday night doesn't indicate to me that he waited until he'd finished his week's work - three out of the four attack nights had working days before and after.

    Of course, he may not have worked at all, or only casually, or cyclically, or not cared if he was dog-tired the next day, or took stimulants, or was an insomniac, etc etc. Maybe he was Tyler Durden?
    good post Joshua
    Im thinking that pattern may indicate he didn't work Fridays-sunday. like he wanted to be able to go out, stay out late and have plenty of time to do his thing (and play with his goodies?) without having to worry about waking up early the next morning to go to work. the two thursday night attacks is interesting-like he was itching to get out there.

    any type of work that was only Monday-Thursday?

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    It certainly could be if she was a victim too (and she might have been.) We all talk about the c5 but there might not be as strong a consensus as we might assume. Iíd say that in general most agree on Nichols, Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly (although some discount Kelly.) Tabram is considered by many to have been a victim (I might be overdoing it here but it might even be close to 50-50 on those that go for her as a victim of Jack) Iíd guess that less than 50% go for Mackenzie but yes Iíd have to admit that that might be due to them accepting Macnaghten. But, as this thread shows, a significant number go for her as a victim. I donít know of any that go for Coles but they might do and other victims/attacks have been attributed to the Ripper by some. Stride is still debated of course and a case can be made either way.

    If there isnít already one it might be interesting to do an up to date poll on who were Jackís victims.

    Ill ask you and everyone else Harry. Is this topic worth a poll? Iíd be interested to see overall opinion.
    my two cents on probability of ripper victims:

    Wilson-20%
    millwood-75%
    Smith-20%
    Tabram-90%
    Nichols-100%
    Chapman-100%
    Stride-95%
    Eddowes-100%
    Kelly-100%
    Mckenzie-90%
    Coles-10%

    so for murders-I go with a C7-the C5 and Tabram and McKenzie.

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  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post

    Agreed Harry. But I wonder why the killer became almost hesitant in his mutilations though? Itís the scratches that put the most doubt in my mind.

    I also wonder if the day is relevant at all? Weíve got no way of knowing of course with the c5 all occurring at a weekend but, at the very least, if the day was relevant to the killer then Mackenzie might be an issue if he only got to the East End at weekends for example due to his work? Speculation of course.
    Hi HS
    The scratches are odd yes, but who knows? he could have been wasted and or ill-not up to snuff. maybe her tight clothes had something to do with it. or like stride and Nichols he was disturbed by something which caused hesitation and then scared off.

    Leave a comment:

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